FOX "Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace" - Transcript: Radical Islam

Interview

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WALLACE: And hello again from Fox News in Washington.

We begin with breaking news. Jordan has renewed its offer to trade an al Qaeda prisoner for a Jordanian pilot being held by ISIS after the Islamic militants released a video which appears to show the murder of a second Japanese hostage. We'll discuss the worsening situation in the region and growing criticism of U.S. policy with some key players on these issues.

But first, FOX News correspondent Conor Powell is live in our Mideast newsroom with the latest -- Conor.

CONOR POWELL, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Chris, Kenji Goto's death is just the latest in a long line of challenges facing the United States here in the Middle East, and just about every corner of the region, there is cause for concern from the growing threat from ISIS, to Iran, to the friction between the United States and one of its closest allies.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POWELL (voice-over): Two days ago, there was hope that talks would lead to the release of Japanese journalist Kenji Goto, and the Jordanian pilot Muath al-Kaseasbeh. But Saturday night, ISIS released instead video showing Goto's execution while vowing more violence.

Despite losing the Kurdish city of Kobani, after weeks of U.S. airstrikes, ISIS regrouped and launched a major offensive on the oil-rich city of Kirkuk, once again proving the fight against the radical group is far from over.

And tensions flared once again between Israel and the Iranian-backed terror group Hezbollah. After Israel launched a strike that killed several militants and an Iranian general in Syria, Hezbollah responded, killing two Israeli soldiers, nearly igniting another war.

In Israel, the fallout from Prime Minister Netanyahu's decision to speak before Congress despite objections from the White House took center stage. Across Israeli media, shocked even some at FOX News, seen here, which is here as pro-Netanyahu, would criticize the move.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

POWELL: There is a sense here in Israel and really across the entire Middle East that the U.S. has lost both the ability and the desire to help shape and stabilize the Middle East, Chris, at a time when it needs it the most.

WALLACE: Conor Powell, reporting from Jerusalem -- Conor, thanks for that.

Now, let's bring in top Middle East experts to discuss the situation on the ground, and President Obama's policies. Former army vice chief of staff, retired four-star general, Jack Keane. Senator Kelly Ayotte, who is on the Armed Services Committee. And Dennis Ross, who served as the Mideast negotiator to four U.S. presidents.

All of you, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

SEN. KELLY AYOTTE, R-N.H., ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Thanks, Chris.

JACK KEANE, RETIRED FOUR-STAR GENERAL: Glad to be here.

WALLACE: General Keane, I'd like to start with that map over your shoulder which you presented to the Senate Armed Services Committee this week.

What do you think it demonstrates?

KEANE: Well, I think, first of all, the United States is confronting a security challenge at a scale that's not seen since post-World War II, with the rise of the Soviet Union super power and the spread of communism globally. What we see on the map is radical Islam morphing into the global jihad, and also, the Iranian state-sponsored terrorism and state itself seeking domination represented by green on that map, as it begins to control and influence some of the major countries in the Middle East and certainly influence or control those capitals.

WALLACE: Ambassador Ross, I mean, the map is stunning and as you look at that spread of Islamic extremism across the Middle East, now into North Africa, are we winning or losing the war against Islamic extremism?

AMBASSADOR DENNIS ROSS, FOX NEWS FOREIGN AFFAIRS ANALYST: Look, at this point, basically they're fighting each other. Iranians are fighting ISIS. In a sense, we may want both sides to lose, but the fact is, we also have to find a way to ensure that the non-Islamists in the region begin to gain. What you would hope to see over the next couple years is everywhere the radicalists are on the move, they begin to lose, they begin to see reverses and we begin to see the non-Islamists in the region, we begin to see them advance.

WALLACE: But you're not seeing that on the map.

ROSS: No, you're not seeing it right now. We have approach right now as it relates to ISIS that I think at this point still hasn't resolved the fundamental problem. You cannot defeat ISIS in Iraq unless, in fact, you deal with the problem of Syria. If you're only attacking the ISIS targets in Syria and allowing Assad to attack the non-ISIS targets, you're creating a problem for yourself. You're going to have to resolve that contradiction if you're going to have a strategy that's effective.

WALLACE: I want to go back, Senator Ayotte, to the big picture and to that map. And the Obama administration's continued refusal to say that we are in a war with Islamic extremism. Here this week is Secretary of the State John Kerry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Today, we are witnessing nothing more than a form of criminal anarchy, a nihilism, which illegitimately claims an ideological and religious foundation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator Ayotte, why does it matter what we call our enemies in the region?

AYOTTE: It very much matters because you have to define your enemy. And here is the problem, I think they should spend less time on being worried about being politically correct about how we define our enemies and more time on a strategy to defeat them. One of the things we heard consistently this week from the national security experts, including General Keane, was a lack of a strategy. It was very disjointed what's happening and what we see is more outgrowth of these extremist groups in the region.

WALLACE: Well, I want to pick up on that. And in fact, the reason that I wanted to do the panel this week is because you had some of our leading national security thinkers, really sounding the alarm. It almost seemed in a way like a tipping point.

Let's put some of them up on the screen. Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, retired head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said this, "You cannot defeat an enemy you do not admit exists."

And General James Mattis, former head of U.S. Central Command, which had responsibility for the Middle East, said, "We need to come out from our reactive crouch and take a firm strategic stance in defense of our values."

Which raises the question, and you addressed it in the little clip we had in our opening, General Keane, do we have a winning strategy at this point against Islamic extremism?

KEANE: Well, anybody looking at that map, our viewers just looking at it, would come to the conclusion, which is obvious -- we do not. Al Qaeda has grown four-fold in five years. ISIS, which began when we pulled out politically and military from Iraq, grew from an organization less than 3,000 to an organization over 30,000 in three years. Radical Islamists spread from Western Africa through the Middle East, all the way to South Asia to sub-Indian continent.

What is the strategy to stop it? We have not stopped it and we certainly don't have a strategy to defeat it. It is absolutely compelling.

What is our strategy? We use drones to kill al Qaeda leadership in Pakistan and also in Yemen. That's a vital tactic we should use it but it's not a strategy. We partner with very selective countries in Africa to help them do some training. That's fragmented at best. There's no overall strategy.

Until we bring the countries that are involved and also those that have interest together and put together an alliance and establish a strategy, we're not going to be able to push effectively against this.

WALLACE: Ambassador Ross, let me pick up with you. You were -- we talk about four presidents, you were a special assistant for the Mideast for this president, President Obama, for his first two years in office. So, it's not like you're a knee-jerk critic of this president.

And it's not just the spread of Islamist militants -- let's put this on the map -- because it's also Iran which we now see its influence is spreading to Baghdad and Damascus and Beirut and Sana'a.

If the threat is radical Islam, does the president have a sound strategy, both militarily and also in terms of messaging to deal with Islamic extremism -- and what do we need to do differently or better?

ROSS: Well, a couple of points. First, I think, Senator, your point not being reluctant to identify who the enemy is, is essential, because we have to say who it is that we're actually fighting.

And you look at that map and you see Iran being on the move, you see radical Islamism as reflected by Iran fighting radical Islamism as reflected, I would say, ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood.

We have to decide, radical Islam, whether it's Sunni or Shia, is the enemy. And we have to then begin to work with those who see that as a threat to them.

We shouldn't be reluctant to call it "Islamic radicalism", precisely because there are those in the Middle East who see it as a threat and they're the ones who ultimately have to discredit it. We cannot discredit radical Islam. They're going to have to discredit it.

But I'll give you one simple --

WALLACE: But if we're not even acknowledging that that's what the problem is, it's going to be hard to get the people in the region to discredit it and fight it.

ROSS: We have to be prepared to be forthright on it. They also have to see that we're prepared to fight it. They have to see we're prepared to support those who are prepared to fight it and we then have to be prepared to invest in a way that allows us to succeed with them.

WALLACE: But, Senator Ayotte, I mean, what do we do? I mean, we talk about these coalitions. Yes, we've got Jordanians a couple of sorties and things like that. But what do we do when we see that map, it's like the fire alarm is ringing.

AYOTTE: There is a fire alarm ringing, Chris. And I think what we do is they're expecting American leadership in terms of bringing us together. They have to take the fight there. We help them with the capacity. They have to have the will.

But they right now I think many of those in the Arab nations are looking to us that we could work with and saying, can we count on them? Will they stick with their word? And I think that's one of the problems we face as we look at an overall strategy, yes, we can't do all the fighting and they need to step up against radical Islam, no question.

But as leaders, we need to bring people together. They need to be able to count on us and we have to make sure, Chris --

WALLACE: And you don't think at this point our so-called allies in the region feel they can defend on this president?

AYOTTE: I don't. Unfortunately, I don't. And I think that there'd been many instances -- one of the things we took from the testimony on Armed Services Committee I heard this week was, also, our word has to matter. And I think there's a real concern out there that not only a lack of a strategy but in order to be a leader to bring everyone together to work together, you have to be able to be counted on. I think that's a real worry.

WALLACE: General Keane, Lieutenant General Flynn, the former head of the Defense Intelligence, compared what we need to do in this region now to the U.S. and allied effort against the Nazis in World War II to, and you mentioned it, the Cold War and the West's effort against the soviets. What -- I mean, give me specific ideas. What do we need to be doing?

KEANE: Well, I think we can be informed by beating the Nazis with brute force and beating the Soviet Union, I think with better ideas. But most importantly, we formed alliances in NATO and Southeast Asia Treaty Organization to contain communism. That's what we need here.

We need to come together and form alliances. This is not about -- our viewers shouldn't think in looking at that map that the United States troops are going to be fighting wars all over the Middle East and on the sub-continent -- Indian subcontinent. That's not true.

This is mostly about the countries doing their own heavy lifting. But here's what we can do -- share intelligence, share technology, share equipment. We have learned a lot how to fight this enemy. Most of these militaries out there are conventional militaries. They have to transition to be able to deal with irregular warfare, just like we have transitioned in the last 13 years. There's much we can do to help.

WALLACE: All right. I want to talk about one last area, and we're beginning to run out of time, and that is -- you talk about alliances, our relationship with our strongest ally in the region, Israel, seems to be at an all-time low after Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, accepted an invitation from the House Speaker John Boehner to speak to Congress about the dangers of the Iranian nuclear threat without anybody telling the White House.

Bret Baier asked Speaker Boehner about that this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SPECIAL REPORT")

BRET BAIER, HOST: Do you think there's some kind of antipathy in this administration towards Netanyahu?

REP. JOHN BOEHNER, R-OHIO, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Of course there is. They don't -- they don't even try to hide it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Ambassador Ross, you have worked on this issue -- on the Middle East, Israel, Palestinians, almost your entire career. And yet I want to put up some of the comments that were being made this week. Put them up on the screen.

A senior administration official says of Netanyahu, "He spat in our face publicly." Another top official tells "The New York Times," "Israeli ambassador to the U.S. Ron Dermer repeatedly placed Mr. Netanyahu's political fortunes above the relationship between Israel and the United States."

How serious is this breach?

ROSS: Well, look, I think it is serious, because, obviously, President Obama is going to be there for another almost two years. Whoever merges in the Israeli election is going to, in a sense dealing with administration as it relates to this prime minister, where there's a profound sense of distrust and there's a sense that the prime minister has made a decision in the sense not to work with the administration but to work with the Congress. And in a sense, beyond that, to make it a partisan issue not an American issue.

Israel and this country has been not a Republican issue, not a Democratic issue, but an American issue. That's profoundly in our interest and in Israel's interest to preserve that.

WALLACE: That seems to be falling apart right now.

ROSS: Right now, that -- I think that's put under more risk than we've seen before.

WALLACE: Thirty seconds. Final thought, Senator Ayotte.

AYOTTE: Final thought, I think there's still bipartisan support in Congress for Israel. And I think the real Israel is concerns that these negotiations, there's already been too much conceded --

WALLACE: You're talking about Iran?

AYOTTE: Absolutely. We just -- the Senate Banking Committee on strong bipartisan voted out additional sanctions this week. The Congress would like to say on this agreement because many on both sides of the aisle are concerned that we have a strong verifiable agreement that really ends in their nuclear program. And that goes back to I think the prime minister's concerns, about too much has been conceded already.

And so, I think you'll find some bipartisan support in Congress for the concerns that the prime minister has about the ongoing negotiations with Iran.

WALLACE: Senator Ayotte, General Keane, Ambassador Ross, thank you all so much. Thank you for coming in today and helping us understand what I think is a really grievous situation. Thank you all.

AYOTTE: Thanks.

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