FOX "Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace" - Transcript: Cuba Policy

Interview

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WALLACE: After a half-century of Cold War sanctions, President Obama has opened a new chapter in relations between the U.S. and Cuba. Joining us now to debate this dramatic shift in policy, two members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which will have to review some of the changes. From Wisconsin, Republican Senator Ron Johnson and from Florida, Maryland Senator Ben Cardin. Gentlemen, let's start with the big picture. President Obama says that a half a century of sanctions, of isolation of Cuba just hasn't worked. Here he is.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't anticipate overnight changes, but what I know deep in my bones is that if you've done the same thing for 50 years and nothing's changed, you should try something different if you want a different outcome.

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WALLACE: Senator Johnson, I guess that's the question. Why not engage Cuba? Why not expose it to Western values and Western capitalism, especially as the country is about to go through a generational change from the Castro brothers?

SENATOR RON JOHNSON (R-WI), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Good morning, Chris. Well, your panel was talking about North Korea. We relaxed sanctions on North Korea. We've relaxed sanctions on Iran. Has that worked? The fact of the matter is these are repressive regimes. I agree, 50 years of this kind of policy unfortunately hasn't worked, but it's not necessarily because it's the bad policy. By the way, it's the Helms-Burton Act was actually passed in an overwhelmingly bipartisan fashion and signed by President Clinton.

So, on a bipartisan fashion this has been the policy of the United States for 50 years and Helms-Burton is 18 years. And I would argue it's not because it's bad policies, it's because we're trying -- we are dealing with very bad and evil people, a repressive regime that has backed terrorists around the world and is going to threaten the national security of America and not improve the lives of Cuban people.

WALLACE: Well, Senator Cardin, that's the other side of the argument you hear, that President Obama has given up too much to the Cubans in return for too little. Here's another member of your Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Marco Rubio.

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MARCO RUBIO (R ) FLORIDA SENATOR: These changes will lead to legitimacy for a government that shamelessly, continuously abuses human rights, but it will not lead to assistance for those whose rights are being abused.

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WALLACE: And just to add to that, Cuban President Raul Castro pledged in a speech before his parliament yesterday, Senator Cardin, that his government will not abandon communism.

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D-MD) FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Chris, I can assure you that we will continue to point out the faults of the Cuban system, and we will speak out against human rights. But one thing is clear. The more Americans, business people that interact with Cubans, the more Americans that have a chance to interact with Cubans, the more the Cubans will realize that their current system is failing them and will want the benefit of a more open society. That I think is clear. But we will stay strong in our message on violations of human rights. We've done that in the past. Alan Gross is now home with his family. That's an important step of progress that's been made. Commitments given by the Cubans. We'll see how they'll carry them out. So, we have moved on to a new chapter. We're looking forward rather than back, and I think that's going to be good for the Cuban people and good for the United States.

WALLACE: Gentlemen, let's take a number that I suspect you can argue both ways, and that's number of political prisoners in Cuba which has risen from 2,000 in 2010 to 8,400, four times as many, last month. Senator Cardin, I guess the question is, why reward a dictatorship that, as you can see in the last few years, has become more repressive, not less so?

CARDIN: I think the question would be why continue a policy that hasn't brought about change? Let's try a different policy. So the number of political prisoners is outrageous. It's hurting Cuba. We know that. If they don't open up their society, their people are the ones who suffer. I think the more exposure we can give them to Americans, the better it's going to be. But we're going to continue to speak out in regards to the fault of their system.

WALLACE: Well, Senator Johnson, answer, if you will, Senator Cardin's question, which is it hasn't worked, why not try something different?

JOHNSON: Well, again, it hasn't worked, relaxing sanctions in Iran or North Korea, but let's listen to the words of some of these political prisoners from Castro. It is discomforting that the accounts of Castro's regime can grow as the first step will be more effective repression and a rise in the level of corruption. Another form of political prisoners said this is a betrayal that leaves the Democratic opposition defenseless. Obama has allied himself with the oppressors and murders of our people. These are people that in the past who have been repressed and imprisoned by this evil regime. And again, I don't see relaxing sanctions working in Iran and South Korea or North Korea. Why would you expect that type of relaxation sanctions are going to work with the evil Castro regime?

WALLACE: Well, let's pick up on that, because that's the point, Senator Cardin, that you continue to make, which is there's going to be exposure to Western values, Western people, Western business, and that that is somehow going to at least begin to open up Cuba. Here are some of the things that President Obama is going to be able to do unilaterally. Ease U.S. exports of building materials and agricultural and telecommunications equipment, establish banking relations between the two countries.

Senator Johnson, let me get you to directly confront what Senator Cardin said. Do you think that that kind of relaxation, that kind of opening of business and trade between the two countries, even though we're not lifting the trade embargo, will that benefit the average Cuba?

JOHNSON: No. The Cubans who had access to those kind of goods from other trading partners, and the Cuban, the Castro regime has remained every bit as oppressive and repressive, as, you know, so that is not going to help the Cuban people at all. It's going to funnel funds into the Castro regime that they can use for creating mayhem in the Western hemisphere. So, it's just not going to work.

WALLACE: Senator Cardin, Senator Johnson does make a good point. Other countries have trade, other countries have diplomatic relations and it hasn't softened or eased the communist regime of the Castro brothers.

CARDIN: You know, I had very interesting conversation with Alan Gross who -- talked about ...

WALLACE: And explain. He was an American who came down there to try to provide more Internet access and ended up as a political prisoner or accosted, whatever you want to call him, for, what, five years.

CARDIN: Five years he was in the Cuban prison. So, he said the country is so underutilized. It's a country, in which they don't even have enough vegetables to feed their people and they have plenty of land and great weather. So, I think that people are going to recognize the fact that their country is underperforming and they are the ones who have been victimized by the Castro regime. That's going to come. We saw that with the fall of the communism in Europe as the Iron Curtain fell. People want the type of standard of living they see in their neighbors where they have more open and democratic societies. Cuba's close to the United States, it's in our hemisphere. It's our neighbor. It's a country that we have a direct interest -- it's in our interest for Cuba to change, and this policy gives us hope that we'll see a different Cuba.

WALLACE: All right, gentlemen. We have a couple of minutes left and I want to get to I guess really in the end the big question as far as the two of you are concerned, which is what can Congress do about it. Senator Johnson, as an opponent, what can you do to block the opening of diplomatic relations, and what can you do to block the easing of trade limits?

JOHNSON: First of all, this is another example of President Obama spending a lot of time trying to circumvent the very clear spirit in the law of Helms-Burton. Again, that was a bipartisan effort. Chairman Menendez is saying the exact same thing. And so, really, there's some real prescriptions in that Helms-Burton act that you really have -- the administration has to follow some very specific steps before they lift the embargo. The president has not followed them. In other words, the determination that there's actually been a transition government, that hasn't happened. And so there are a number of things we can do to try to actually enforce the law that this president -- that this president simply is ignoring.

WALLACE: Senator Cardin, look at it from your point of view. How effective can opponents be in blocking, for instance, the establishment of full diplomatic relations? You're certainly going to have a problem if the president decides to name an ambassador, getting him confirmed in a Republican-controlled Senate. And what about if they pass legislation to restrict any of the trade openings that he's making here unilaterally?

CARDIN: Well, you know, Ron's right. There's different views among Democrats on this subject, there's different views among Republicans on this subject. I think you're going to see a change developing in Cuba. The American people are going to get it. Our political system will want to be engaged. I think you'll see action in Congress. A lot can happen without direct congressional activity, but there will be a need for Congress to take action hopefully as we move to a new chapter in our Cuban relations. And it's going to be an interesting debate in Congress and it's not going to be one party versus the other. It's going to be what we think is best in this country, and I hope Democrats and Republicans can come together and work on a new chapter in our relation with Cuba.

WALLACE: Senator Cardin, Senator Johnson, we want to thank you both so much for coming in today. Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to both of you gentlemen.

CARDIN: Thank you.

JOHNSON: Merry Christmas to you, Chris.

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