MSNBC Hardball - Transcript

MSNBC Hardball - Transcript
5/5/2005

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MATTHEWS: With Americans paying more at the pumps, will politicians pay at the polls? A confidential memo circulating among Republicans on Capitol Hill points out that skyrocketing gas prices are putting the economy and jobs at the top of the list of issues worrying voters.

Congressman Edward Markey is a Democrat from Massachusetts. And Congressman Michael Rogers is a Republican from Michigan.

Congressman Markey, you've long been known for your efforts at conservation. Why are Americans still buying big cars, gas guzzlers, when the Japanese car industry is getting all the sales right now with smaller cars?

(CROSSTALK)

REP. ED MARKEY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, as you know, General Motors does not make hybrids. Ford only made 4,000 hybrids last year. The Japanese and the Koreans are sending these cars over now in such numbers that they can't even satisfy it. You have to wait six months to purchase a fuel efficient automobile made from overseas.
So there's a big problem right now. Our auto industry has been caught with these high energy prices. They're not likely to come down significantly. So, we do have a very significant problem with American consumers not having any American cars to turn to which are fuel efficient.

MATTHEWS: The prestige car, Congressman, is to own an SUV.

Everywhere you go where people have a lot of money, they own SUVs. However, the latest figures have just come in. While GM is in tremendous trouble-and you being from out in Michigan know all about it-Nissan, best April in history. Toyota, the best month in the history of the company. At the same time, our guys are crashing, like GM. What did we get wrong? What did our marketing get wrong? Where did our thinking go wrong in America?

REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN: Well, one thing is that, if you notice, Toyota and Nissan are moving in on the truck market, the SUV market and the luxury market.

MATTHEWS: But they're getting the economy market.

ROGERS: Well, they've had the economy market for years. That was not this...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why is that market booming? Because gas prices are booming, right?

ROGERS: Well, obviously, people are price conscious on gasoline and what those cars can do.

General Motors, they are making changes. They're working on a hybrid. Hybrids are not going to be the answer everywhere. If you're in suburbia America, a hybrid may not be the answer for you.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about this. When you go to a-Congressman Markey, when you go to the gas pump to buy gas now, you almost have to use a credit card because it costs so much. You have got to spend $50 to fill your tank. It is like you need Brazilian cruzeiros. You need so much currency now to pay for a car, a load of gas.

Isn't that causing people to make different decisions or not or how much they drive, what kind of car they try to buy?

MARKEY: There's no question that's about to happen. People really feel that, when they go to the gas pump now, that the oil cartel is holding them by the legs and tipping them upside down and shaking money out of their pockets.

The problem is, is that President Bush and the Republican leadership in the Congress have resisted attempts to increase dramatically our fuel economy standards over the last five years. Gerald Ford in 1975 signed a bill which doubled the fuel economy standard from 13 miles to 27 miles per hour. He was from Michigan. Today, we've gone backwards to 1981's few economy standards. OPEC knows it. They know they have got us over a barrel.

And no matter how much people might want to buy fuel efficient hybrids, there aren't any for sale in America unless you want to buy them from Japan or from Korea.

MATTHEWS: Why doesn't the United States government encourage by taxation policy the purchase of hybrid cars or more fuel efficient cars?

RODGERS: Well, we want to make that incentive to buy what is a more expensive automobile. And it takes time to get that money back.

As I said, if you're a suburban driver, it takes longer to get your money back in a hybrid than you are, say, a city driver. And if you notice where those sales are, they tend to be oriented in metropolitan areas. That's the right decision for them.

MATTHEWS: But don't we still get a tax loophole for buying big, heavy cars because they're like farm equipment?

ROGERS: Well, when it relates to your business, absolutely, vans, truck, farm equipment, you bet.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Yes, but you buy-if you buy an SUV, a car that people like to drive because it looks good and it feels strong, it is bigger.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: It is a luxury item. Aren't people buying them and getting tax breaks because they're being argued that...

ROGERS: You know, one thing you have to remember, when they passed that had 1975, moms liked to drive station wagons. Remember this?

MATTHEWS: Sure. I know.

ROGERS: And because they could get their family in it. It was a bigger car, a safer car. They could get all their kids, put the bike...

MATTHEWS: I agree. I agree.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why should the federal government encourage the purchase of heavy cars?

ROGERS: Well, let me get to that.

The CAFE standards artificially eliminated that station wagon. They went to different things. Well, what did they go to? Minivans, trucks, SUVs. So, the people who are buying these aren't folks who are on the block. These are people who want bigger cars, safer for their family, get more stuff in there. Technology hasn't reached the point where they can get good gas mileage on a heavier vehicle. When it does, they'll sell like crazy.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Markey, do-U.S. policy encourage purchasing of heavy cars or lighter cars?

MARKEY: Believe it or not, inside the energy bill which just passed the Republican Congress last week, they removed the tax break to purchase a hybrid, but they left in the $35,000 tax break to buy a Hummer 2.

Now, what kind of incentives are we creating in 2005 at the height of an energy crisis, the price of oil over $50 for more than six months? So, the tax policy is not being used correctly. The president should have already announced to the Saudi Arabians that he was calling in the secretary of transportation and ordering him to begin a new process of dramatically raising the fuel economy standards for every SUV and automobile in America.

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: Let's get to the problem, though.

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: While maintaining the safety and the comfort of those vehicles.

ROGERS: The problem is, you have said no to all of our fixes.

This energy bill, the first one-we've been working on this. When we started, oil was $25 a barrel. Today, it's $50. And the Democrats, you included, said no, no, no. You stopped it. You stopped it. Had we done this four or five years ago, when I came into Congress, we would have seen this ability.

MATTHEWS: Done what? Done what?

ROGERS: This energy bill. This is great energy policy for America.

We invest in alternative fuels, $2 billion for hydrogen vehicles. We actually say we're going to have refineries. If we're going to use gasoline here, we ought to be able to refine every gallon of it. We can't today. We have to import refined material, horribly expensive. We cut the number of regulations as they apply to gasoline.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... do for conservation?

ROGERS: Well, in conservation, we encourage things and encourage companies to get to where they add technology to appliances and other things to reduce the draw when it is plugged into the wall, including your cell phone.

MATTHEWS: OK.

ROGERS: So, we've made those kinds of efforts. And this is a long process. It took us a long time to get here.

MATTHEWS: Isn't the problem that people are driving more and they're driving heavier cars that cost money? You can have better fuel efficiency, but if the car weighs more, it is going to use up more gas.

ROGERS: If it weighs less, you take chance of a higher death and fatality rate. That's proven.

MATTHEWS: So you think heavier cars are better?

ROGERS: Well, if you're a family person, I don't begrudge you one bit trying to get...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, that's the problem, isn't it? You may not begrudge you, because you're a politician. But the fact is, the bigger the car, the heavier car, the more the energy it takes to drive the car.

ROGERS: I don't begrudge them because I'm a dad and I have got kids.

And I want them in a safe vehicle.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: So, in other words, you're choosing safety over economy?

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: That's the choice for me, yes. And I think a lot of families make that choice.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Congressman Markey, your thoughts?

MARKEY: That is a false choice.

Scientists at MIT and engineering schools all across America say that they could improve the fuel economy standards for the existing set of vehicles by 10 miles per gallon using existing technology, without compromising safety or comfort at all. But the problem is, is that-the problem is, is that...

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: That is simply not borne out by the facts. That is simply not borne out. I mean, what we're saying is, let's incentivize these people...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: We're going to come back and talk about this. I think there is a clash of views here.

We'll be back with Congressman Edward Markey and Congressman Mike Rogers.

This is HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We're back with Congressman Mike Rogers and Congressman Ed Markey.

Congressman Markey, we just had Adel Al-Jubeir on from the Saudi Arabia government, who said that there is plenty of crude oil out there. If we want it, if we are able to buy it and refine it, we can get it from them now. It's not their fault the prices are going up. It is our fault we can't refine it fast enough.

MARKEY: Well, that's the problem.

OK, what they're saying is, if you could refine more oil, we would send you more oil. We'll make you even more dependent upon us. That's the premise of the Saudi Arabians. He's holding the president's hand with one. In the other hand, he's got his hand in the pocket of American consumers.

MATTHEWS: What do you want the Saudis to do, Congressman?

MARKEY: I want the president to tell the Saudis, like President Kennedy told the Soviet Union in 1961, that he was going to put a man on the moon, I want President Bush to tell the Saudi Arabians that we're going to have every American driving an SUV and an automobile within five to 10 years that is twice as efficient as it is today.

And we're going to put OPEC on its back. We're going to drop the price of oil. We're going to make our economy stronger. And I want a stronger message from this president. He has not delivered it yet. And, as a result, the American consumer and the American economy is being harmed and harmed very seriously.

MATTHEWS: Mike Rogers, what do you think is the cause of these high gas prices?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Is it refinery capacity?

ROGERS: Oh, absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Or crude prices?

ROGERS: Absolutely.

We haven't built a refinery in this country in over 25 years, not one. And, unfortunately, folks like Mr. Markey try to stop us from doing that in this bill, saying, look, if we're going to use it, we ought to at least be able to refine it. We have to import refined gasoline, which is horribly expensive to do that. We've gotten after that. And this bill said, no, we're going to create refinery capability again in the United States.

MATTHEWS: What about the argument he made that we should have cars that use less-half as much gas?

ROGERS: This president has stood up...

MATTHEWS: You being from Michigan, can you politically support something like that?

ROGERS: Oh, absolutely. Yes, we're for it, believe me.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You can double the efficiency of our cars and get away with that politically?

ROGERS: Well, I'll tell you what we did do. We said, we're going to spend all of this money, $2 billion, on hydrogen fuel. We think hydrogen is the car of the future. And we're going to build it in America.

MATTHEWS: Why is Nissan and Toyota making a bundle on lighter, more efficient cars and we're selling these big SUVs that people aren't buying?

And why is GM in huge trouble? Why are the Japanese beating us with the cars that people want to buy in this country?

(CROSSTALK)

ROGERS: But, remember, their big sales increases came in heavier vehicles, trucks and SUVs. They weren't really in that market. They've made a run at those markets.

MATTHEWS: Well, why are they beating us?

ROGERS: It's good marketing. Well, people are preferring those models. That is something the big three has to come to grips with.

MARKEY: Chris.

ROGERS: This is a design, sales problem. It's not-that part of it is not the gas consumption.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Congressman Markey..

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: Chris, Chris...

MATTHEWS: Yes, quickly.

MARKEY: Detroit is saying that the hydrogen vehicle is the vehicle of the future. But it's 15 years from now. While Detroit is waiting, Toyota and Nissan are sending us the hybrids today. Detroit doesn't have an answer. We're going to be importing more automobiles.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: This is going to be a hot issue.

(CROSSTALK)

MARKEY: The president's own bill, as analyzed by his own Department of Energy, has said that it will increase the price of gasoline by 3 to 8 cents. So, his own bill doesn't solve the problem.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you both, Congressmen, Congressman Ed Markey of Massachusetts, Congressman Mike Rogers of Michigan.

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