MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: National Football League Scandals

Interview

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MATTHEWS: We`re back, and joining us right now is the rising star in
Democratic politics today, Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York. She`s
the author of a hot new book, "Off the Sidelines."

And I want to start with the story that everyone`s talking about right now, and it speaks directly, I think, to the kinds of abuses of women that they face in this world that Senator Gillibrand has written about, talked about and tried to legislate about.

I`m, of course, talking about those devastating images of Baltimore Ravens running back Ray Rice and the possible lack of interest by the NFL leadership, especially Commissioner Roger Goodell. As multiple reporters and commentators have pointed out, Goodell already had the evidence months ago that Rice knocked out his fiancee, Janay Palmer. There was the Baltimore police report, which says that he struck her. There was an original TMZ video which shows Rice dragging her onto the casino floor unconscious from the elevator. That was all out there.

Now there`s more palpable anger about it, that he feared public opinion and looked the other way until now. Anyway, the calls for his resignation have begun.

Senator, on this issue, what does it tell us about the accountability or lack thereof of American life, really, in protecting women?

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D), NEW YORK: Well, it`s part of a very big story and a long story. Certainly, the NFL got this wrong. It`s outrageous. It`s disgraceful. He needs to be punished. And I think there needs to be accountability.

But it is part of this larger issue of how are women treated in society. We have sexual assault on college campuses with no accountability or transparency. We have huge challenges within the military. And that`s why these issues really need to be raised and we need to really hear women`s voices when we begin to advocate for change.

MATTHEWS: Well, what about the guy -- it`s a male at the top, Roger Goodell? He knew this person had been knocked out by the male in this case. Should he have said something then, rather than waiting for the full tape to be released that we`re looking at now? It seems like they`re only reacting to the public disclosure, not to the reality.

GILLIBRAND: I think that`s right. And that`s what you see time and time again in cases like this, in many areas. But what we know is he admitted to beating his wife and they knew that he dragged her out of an elevator well in advance. And he should have been suspended then and fired.

I mean, it`s really an issue of a conduct and a behavior that`s criminal, that there should be no tolerance for in any setting. And we need better accountability. This is -- our football players are role models for our kids. We need to make sure that they are not -- that they`re held to a higher standard, and at least a standard of accountability that should have been done here.

MATTHEWS: Let`s talk about women here. Here`s Janay Palmer, by the way, then fiancee at the time. She wrote today in an Instagram, quote, "No one knows the pain that the media and unwanted options from the public has caused my family. To take something away from the man I love, that he has worked for his whole life just to gain ratings is horrific. This is our life. Just know we will continue to grow and show the world what real love is."

"What real love is" -- how do you explain that? You can`t get particular with her, but why would someone -- a woman who has been knocked out cold, dragged across the floor and actually kicked around to get in the position he wanted her in to get her out of the elevator, to say later, Well, this is what real love`s about, or something -- how do you explain that syndrome?

GILLIBRAND: Chris, one of the challenges we face in the military context and the college campus context is you have to define this behavior as the crime that it is. And on college campuses, when you say, Oh, rape, it`s just a college prank, it`s not something serious, it`s, Oh, you know, they had a little too much to drink -- no, these are brutal crimes.

These are crimes of violence, crimes of domination, and if you don`t call them for the crimes that they are, you don`t have the justice and accountability that you desperately need. And so you see it in all these instances where we are -- we are not looking at these incidents and these actions as the crimes that they are. And it`s a problem, and it`s a larger societal problem. And it`s about how we value women and how we value women in society. And we don`t see enough justice.

MATTHEWS: Do you sense that there`s something changing about women in leadership? Let`s go to the very top now. Your name is mentioned a lot, of course, Elizabeth Warren`s name, and of course, Secretary Clinton is mentioned as the -- well, I think most people think she`s the probable nominee if she runs, of the Democratic Party, for president next time.

What is it that`s come? Is it an idea whose time has come? Is it like suffrage came in the early part of the last century? What`s happening? Because I think the glass ceiling may be notching up several floors right now.

GILLIBRAND: Well, I know we`re going to talk about it later, but one of the things I talk about in the book is, yes, we need to break the highest glass ceiling. And I am supporting Hillary in 2016, and I think she`ll win and she will be great.

But we also have to concern ourselves as what is women`s role in the workplace overall and how do you help women get off the sticky floor? Meaning, how do you continue -- how do you begin to stop this continuation of women being pulled down into the lowest-wage jobs over and over again?

And so it`s really part of this broader -- this broader conversation of how do we support women? How do we support women in the workplace?And part of it is, you know, getting women on those corporate boards, CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, on the school board, and Hillary Clinton running and winning the presidency.

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s go to ISIS for a minute. Here`s a decision I think a lot of members of the Congress on both sides of the aisle are trying to duck. Do you believe that you, as a senator, a United States senator, should have a role here, an up or down role on whether we go after ISIS militarily?

GILLIBRAND: I do.

I think there are certain things the president can do on his own. There are certain actions he can take to protect U.S. personnel, embassies, et cetera. But if this is going to be a long and protracted -- protracted assault on ISIS that`s going to be multifaceted, multipronged over many years, there`s a role for Congress to play.

And I know that we`re very war-weary as a country, but this is a serious threat and it`s one that must be addressed. And what we have seen is, ISIS is fast-moving, it has metastasized. It is -- it has a lot of resources. And it`s a threat to our interests.

So, we do need to engage. And I think there`s a role for Congress to play, especially as this -- as our strategies and as our approach begin to shift and change. We will have a necessary role.

MATTHEWS: Well, our NBC poll tonight reports that the number one news story in the last five years was the beheadings of those two Americans over there in the last couple weeks. They`re horrific. They have grabbed our attention.

My question to you is, when it comes to down to how we fight this, everybody seems to be for air attacks, airstrikes. Everybody is for zone - - for drone attacks. And then you get the boots on the ground and everybody`s against that. But what about the central question? Should we send in special forces to support the moderate opposition groups there, like the Free Syrian Army?

GILLIBRAND: In Syria? Well, that`s a far more complex issue.You know, I have met with the opposition leaders at many stages as they have shifted. And the biggest national security interest for the United States in Syria has always been the presence of severe and serious chemical weapons that could be sold to terrorist groups, that could be used against Americans, used against American allies.

And so the issue has always been, how do we lock down and destroy those chemical weapons? And when I was talking to our opposition leaders, they wouldn`t even allow -- they wouldn`t even make a deal with the U.S. to say, the minute Assad falls, we go in and we get to destroy those weapons, because they were so against any U.S. troops, even coalition forces or U.N. forces, doing that.

So I have to say it`s a really complex issue, Chris, as to what missions we would ever do within Syria, but we do know that we have a national interest in making sure those chemical weapons are destroyed. And, you know, from reports that I have heard, we don`t know that we have gotten them all.

And it`s still a serious issue.

(CROSSTALK)

GILLIBRAND: And Assad is a horrible man. Make no mistake. He is a horrible person who`s used chemical weapons against his own people.

But what missions and tactics we use is a very serious issue. And I`m very eager to hear what President Obama says on Wednesday, because he will lay out his strategy on how he wants to address ISIL and specifically what he wants to do in Iraq and if and what he could or want to do with regard to Syria.

MATTHEWS: A political question. We will get to it later in the show, but I want your view. How do the Democrats -- you got about six weeks now to save the Senate. How do you do it?

GILLIBRAND: I think we will win. I think our candidates are great.I think -- I have been really focused on helping a lot of the women candidates, Jeanne Shaheen, Kay Hagan, Mary Landrieu, outstanding candidates.

A bunch of challengers, we have Alison Grimes. We have Michelle Nunn. We have Natalie Tennant. It`s exciting. So, I think these are tough races to win, but our candidates are strong, and I`m optimistic.

MATTHEWS: What`s the worst thing that will happen if the Democrats lose the Senate? Explain that to the people right now. What`s the worst- case scenario, if you lose it by a couple votes?

GILLIBRAND: The biggest problem if we lose the Senate, in my opinion, is the Supreme Court, because the Senate is unique in its role of being able to approve nominees and vote for nominees.

And it`s a Republican Senate, President Obama, if there are any openings in the rest of his administration, that would be at risk. And I think if you look at the issues the Supreme Court decides on, it`s health care. It`s whether we have money in politics.

It`s LGBT rights and equality. Every issue, women`s rights, it tends to rise to the Supreme Court, so our nation, our core values, I believe, are at risk if that courts shifts to conservative.

MATTHEWS: Well, if you`re a woman who wants to get ahead and rise to the top, and you want to learn from a person who knows what they`re talking a , get this book, "Off the Sidelines," by Senator Kirsten Gillibrand of New York.

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