MSNBC Hardball - Transcript

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

MATTHEWS: Republican Senator George Allen of Virginia is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and supports the Bolton nomination. Democratic Congressman Chris Van Hollen of Maryland-he's my congressman-is on the House Judiciary Committee, which has absolutely no power in this matter.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Let me go to Senator Allen.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You have power. What's causing the wobble in those three fellow senators of yours, the Republicans?

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN ®, VIRGINIA: I think that the Democrats are trying to throw as much mud as they can, hope some of it sticks.

You know, as we went into the hearing, there's a lot of drama this week on it. And we thought we had all the Republicans together, with-the Democrats were hyperventilating and coming up with all these charges and so forth. And so we thought everyone was set. And it was almost like a football plan. I know you're a football fan.

And then, all of a sudden, when Senator Voinovich said he wanted to study this more, it was like one of our receivers went down and we were covered. And if we tried the play, it's going to get intercepted. So we just threw the pass out of bounds to go to second down.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Why are two other Republicans now getting their names mentioned in the buzz as also worried?

ALLEN: Well, they were-they were-they were somewhat worried in the beginning and have been.

MATTHEWS: I see.

ALLEN: But I think that, when you look at the facts-and, in fact, these charges...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let's be totally fair here.

ALLEN: Go ahead.

MATTHEWS: There was that charge made. And I don't know this woman, someone who worked for the Agency For International Agenda.

ALLEN: Let's go through them one by one.

MATTHEWS: In Russia, she said-these are so-these sound like carry-on ambassador. Somebody is chasing somebody down a hallway. This woman goes into a hotel room. Somebody pounds on the door. That somebody is Bolton.

ALLEN: Right. And here's the reality of this. This comes out on April 18. And then we get a letter from, actually, the president of that company. And, first of all...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: What's the company?

ALLEN: The company is International Business and Technical Consultants. And there was all sorts of questions of billing practices and whether the taxpayers were getting swindled. And, in fact, U.S. taxpayers care about this.

MATTHEWS: What about the woman running down the hall with Bolton in pursuit?

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: The woman running-allegedly running down the hall.

MATTHEWS: Allegedly, of course.

ALLEN: Headed up the Dallas chapter of Mothers Against Bush.

Here's what the president says. Her-"Ms. Townsel's recollection of what transpired 10 years later is impossible to square with the facts. As a team leader, she attempted unsuccessfully to charge the U.S. government for disallowable costs. She became enraged and abusive when our business manager, auditor and executive vice president each questioned these activities and costs."

MATTHEWS: So, she's not to be believed? She's not to be believed?

ALLEN: She's not to be believed.

MATTHEWS: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: And it's absolutely contrary.

Now, what we're going to have is this happening day after day. And I suspect that the Democrats will come up with something whenever we vote in a couple or three weeks. And everything that they've...

MATTHEWS: So, you say they have a whole bag of these sugar plums?

ALLEN: Oh. And in every one of them, it's either hearsay. It's not corroborated. They are just misleading.

MATTHEWS: What would work for you, Senator?

ALLEN: What would work for me?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

ALLEN: John Bolton's proven record of performance.

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: You know what they don't want to bring up? That he headed up the proliferation security initiative that stopped the weapons of mass destruction from being transported and got Libya to sto-you know what they don't want to talk about? How John Bolton got the United Nations to drop that odious resolution that said that Zionism was akin to racism.

MATTHEWS: Was that Bolton?

ALLEN: Yes, it was John Bolton.

MATTHEWS: I thought that was Moynihan.

ALLEN: No, it was John Bolton.

MATTHEWS: Let me go to-your turn. Take as much time as you need to counter this.

(CROSSTALK)

REP. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D), MARYLAND: Look, it's easy to try and dismiss these things and say you're throwing mud at people and it's a big food fight.

These are some very serious allegations. If you want to get to the bottom of it, what you should do is, have some more hearings. Convene the witnesses and get to the truth of the matter.

MATTHEWS: Why are they coming in so late?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, there are lots of people who testified at the committee who brought up very serious allegations.
I think, from a national security perspective, some of the most serious allegations is, John Bolton is somebody who retaliated, threatened to fire individuals, professional civil service people, whose analysis of the facts...

MATTHEWS: Give me a name. Give me a name.

VAN HOLLEN: ... disagreed-this was testimony in front of the committee. I don't serve on the committee. But I have watched and listened to the testimony live when it happened. These are people who said that...

MATTHEWS: Christian Westerman.

VAN HOLLEN: I'm sorry? If that's the name of the person.

MATTHEWS: Right.

VAN HOLLEN: But the fact-the fact of the matter is, this is testimony from people who said that their independent judgment was not just questioned, but that he tried to retaliate against them to try and get them fired.

Now, we've got a very serious situation, it seems, in our country right now with national security questions and the credibility of intelligence. We can't have people who are going around firing civil servants...

MATTHEWS: Right.

VAN HOLLEN: ... for exercising their independent judgment. And that's exactly-that's a core national security issue.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, I worked in the Carter administration. And I saw fights between political appointees and the OMB and civil service and the OMB. And they got quite heated.

VAN HOLLEN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: And there were battles like, who is the boss here? Are you a GS-18? OK. I'm the appointee. You're working for me. So, I've seen these fights before. Aren't they legitimate and part of the workplace in a healthy government?

VAN HOLLEN: Look, I represent a lot of civil servants. And, obviously, there are legitimate differences and a tug and push between the different people in government.

MATTHEWS: Right.

VAN HOLLEN: But the fact of the matter is, it's out of bounds and I think most people would agree it's out of bounds to threaten to fire somebody or retaliate or abuse in any way people simply because their professional analysis differs with your ideological agenda.

That's what it's all about. We saw a failure of intelligence in Iraq.

MATTHEWS: OK.

VAN HOLLEN: That I think all sides would agree we saw a dramatic failure of intelligence in Iraq.

And this is the kind of thing we need to avoid. And this is not the type of temperament you want with somebody who's got one of the leading national security foreign policy positions in the country.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Excuse me. Let's try to distill out the issue of character, performance, competence-competitive-or competence and ideology.

Senator, I always ask people to be honest on this show. If this were a Democratic nominee for a position, that the president of a Democratic-a president-a Democratic president had put up, and you heard this testimony against this person, wouldn't you have questions about voting for them?

ALLEN: I'd want to look at the truthfulness and veracity of all of these charges.

However, the main point that I look at in a position like this is their record of performance. And I think John Bolton has an outstanding record of performance. The fact that he's straight-talking, that he doesn't hold punches in dealing with the United Nations and wanting to advocate the United States' interest first and bringing accountability to the United Nations...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

ALLEN: I that's important for Americans, for our taxpayers. And I actually think, ultimately, it's important for the United Nations.

All these-these issues about people with sensitivities actually haven't been proven to be true whatsoever. I think it's wonderful to be fascinated on how speeches are drafted.

MATTHEWS: Right.

ALLEN: But that's not the salient, important aspect.

MATTHEWS: What happens if you put the guy at the U.N. and he starts chasing other diplomats down the hallway pounding on their doors?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Wouldn't you feel a little embarrassed?

ALLEN: Oh, gosh. I think they could take it.

(LAUGHTER)

ALLEN: And, by the, way on this Mr. Westerman, their key witness was a Mr. Ford, a really likable character.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

ALLEN: The bottom line is, Westerman is still in his job. He said that he had lost confidence in him.

The key point was what to put in a speech to the Heritage Foundation on Cuba's biological weapons capabilities.

(CROSSTALK)

ALLEN: And his speech was exactly the same as the testimony from Mr. Ford.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, if this guy were Mother Teresa, would you still oppose him?

VAN HOLLEN: This is a question of performance. As you said, look, you've got Senator Voinovich.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

VAN HOLLEN: You've got a number of other Republican senators.

MATTHEWS: Hagel, maybe. You got Chafee. Look out.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Anyway, it's going to be hot. It's a great-I love these fights because they bring out the best in people.

Thank you, Senator George Allen and Virginia-I'm sorry, Maryland Congressman Chris Van Hollen.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source