CNN "State of the Union with Candy Crowley" - Transcript: Veterans' Scandal

Interview

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CROWLEY: Joining me now, Congressman Jeff Miller. He's a Republican from Florida who chairs the House Veterans Affairs Committee. And Senator Bernie Sanders, he's an independent from Vermont. He joins us on the phone due to some technical difficulties we're having. He's the chair of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee.

Gentlemen, thank you both.

As the oversight committees, we -- we added up the number of hearings that, together, that the two of you have had since 2013, the beginning of the last session. And it was well over 90. You had 10 joint ones.

And you have to wonder now, looking at this mess, and everyone saying, well, we knew this and knew that, but looking at this mess now, is this not also a failure of oversight, Congressman?

REP. JEFF MILLER (R), FLORIDA: Well, I will tell that you our committee in the House has been working on this issue for well over a year.

In fact, I wrote the president back in May of 2013 and expressed the issues that we had found in regards to wait times. We have had, collectively, in the House over 70 oversight hearings about issues that range from disability claims and the backlog, the backlog in access to care.

So, sure, I mean, everybody is probably culpable in this. But we're doing what we have been asked to do. And that is to find out the information.

CROWLEY: But oversight sort of says to me, Senator Sanders, that you all are watching these guys.

And now, all of a sudden -- not all of a sudden to you all, but to many people -- we're learning of these wait times, of veterans who are dying while waiting. And you look and think, well, what good is congressional oversight, if you all have been working on it for a year or two years or, let's face it, going back a decade, not you two specifically, if...

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Well -- well, Candy, let me just...

CROWLEY: Go ahead.

SANDERS: ... jump in and say that, obviously, anybody who is gaming the situation, cooking the books, totally unacceptable.

Clearly, there are incompetent administrators. And we have got to deal with that issue as well. But I think one point that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle, Candy -- and if you speak to veterans, and if you speak to the veterans organizations, you know what they will tell you? They will tell you that, by and large, the quality of care that veterans receive in VA hospitals and clinics around this country is good to excellent.

I had a hearing a week ago Thursday, and that's what the veterans organizations said.

CROWLEY: Sure, Senator, but, if you can't get in, it doesn't do any good that it's great care.

SANDERS: Well, no, that is -- that is quite right.

And what I think one of the concerns is, is that the VA has established a self-imposed goal of getting people into the system in 14 days. That's pretty ambitious. That's more ambitious in general than the private sector.

And I think there are places around the country where they simply do not have the resources to accommodate the fact that two million more people have come into the system in recent years. And I think some people may be cooking the books to make it look like they're accommodating people in 14 days.

CROWLEY: Doing the guidelines, yes.

And, Congressman, I wanted to ask you about, like, let's assume that people at the VA, particularly those in administrative positions, are there because they care about veterans or they care about medicine. They certainly didn't want people to die while waiting for care. Let's just assume that for a moment.

Why in the world wouldn't they stand up and say, we can't meet this 15 days; we have got aging Vietnam vets, aging Korean vets, a whole new group of vets coming in; we can't possibly meet this?

Why cook the books? Bonuses? What's -- what's the rationale?

MILLER: Bonuses and promotions, for sure.

And I would tell you this. They have had the ability to allow veterans to go outside of the VA system for a long period of time, and they are just now saying, we're going to start moving forward in that posture.

CROWLEY: Well, Senator Sanders, why wouldn't they say, we can't care for these folks; let's send them over to Mass General or wherever they are?

SANDERS: Candy, that is -- I think you have hit the nail on the head. That is the issue.

And instead of being able to say or saying straightforwardly, you know what, we can't get people in, in 14 days, it's going to be a month, it's going to be two months, and we need one of those two things -- either we relax those requirements, which I hope we don't have to do, or else we say, we don't have the resources.

And if you want people in, in 14 days, we're going to need more doctors, we're going to need more nurses, we're going to need more staffing. But, certainly, nobody should be lying. And I think Jeff Miller has been talking about accountability. Jeff is right.

But I think the other area that we have to talk about is that two million new veterans coming in, in the last few years, some of them with PTSD, TBI, very difficult cases. Do we have the staff in all areas of this country to accommodate the needs of those veterans?

Frankly, between you and me, I'm not sure that we do. The veterans organizations have been telling us loud and clearly that we don't. I suspect they're right.

CROWLEY: Well, Congressman Miller, and, in fact, isn't that the -- like, if you take the 50,000-foot view and you look at this, isn't what's screaming, we don't have enough people to care for all these folks at the VA?

And you -- both of you all have pushed for and gotten increases in spending at the VA. In fact, spending at the VA has gone up over the last decade, and particularly over the last four or five years. But doesn't this say to you, we're not giving them enough money; if this is really our commitment, we need to plow money into this, because there aren't enough doctors, nurses, et cetera?

MILLER: No, what you have is an issue of manipulation and mismanagement.

If money was the issue, this problem would have been solved a long time ago. VA is not using the resources that they're provided appropriately. And we can give you...

CROWLEY: Like what?

MILLER: Well, just recently, $500 million to refurbish conference rooms and provide new furnishings, to require veterans to go five hours for surgery to the surgery and five hours back.

They're paying for transcription and the cost of the surgery.

CROWLEY: So, they should be sending them to a closer hospital and saying, we will pay for it.

MILLER: We have got to move away from a World War II concept into the 21st century, not tear the VA system down.

You will hear people say that's what folks want to do. What we want to do is to, number one, give veterans the option to go where they want to get their health care, when they want to get their health care, and not be forced into a system that has to have the numbers to survive.

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: Senator -- go ahead, Senator.

SANDERS: Let me just jump in to say this.

I'm not going to -- when you have a system -- and you have to understand how big the system is -- they're treating 6.5 million people a year, 230,000 people every single day. Is there waste in the system? Absolutely. Jeff is right. And we have got to focus on that. But, at the end of the day, when you have two million new veterans coming into the system, some with very difficult and complicated problems, I do think we have to take a hard look and see if we have the resources. You know, if we are going to send people off to war, we have a solemn promise to make sure that, when we -- when they come home, we are going to take care of them.

CROWLEY: Sure, but -- so, do you think more money needs to go to these hospitals, so they can hire more doctors, get more rooms, whatever the problem happens to be? You think there should be an increased money to meet this demand?

SANDERS: Well, we passed legislation -- we didn't pass it. I proposed legislation, which, unfortunately, only got two Republicans supporting it in the Senate, which would have gone a long way to improve health care and other services for our veterans.

But, to answer your question, I suspect we are going to need more funding if we're going to do justice and provide the high-quality care that veterans deserve.

CROWLEY: Congressman, I'm going to give you the last question.

When you look at the fire that General Shinseki has taken as head of the VA, is -- would his resignation, or firing, whatever you want to call it, accomplish anything? Or has this become a political football now?

(CROSSTALK)

MILLER: Well, I wouldn't call it a political football.

I believe people want to see accountability. And that's what the House of Representatives has been trying to demand through the bills that we have passed through our committee and certainly on the House floor.

I have said Secretary Shinseki doesn't need to go until we see the final report and see exactly how much he knew and when he knew it. But the fact remains, the VA already knows that there are 23 veterans who have died because they were on waiting lists.

CROWLEY: Right, so it -- but -- and yet you're holding off.

I would say, I just wonder whether this is now -- you talk about how complicated it is and how big it is and all of these things, and yet it seems like none of that would be cured with firing the head of the VA.

MILLER: Oh, this is much -- this is much larger than the secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs.

CROWLEY: Like what?

MILLER: Well, you have got an entrenched bureaucracy that exists out there that is not accountable, that is shooting for goals, goals that are not helping the veteran. The person that is supposed to be served is not the bureaucrat. It's the veteran.

CROWLEY: I just -- Senator Sanders, I'm sorry. I'm way over time. So, I just want you to chime in again, because that's why I'm saying, well, what happened to oversight? This an entrenched bureaucracy like...

SANDERS: Well, let me just respond, if I could, Candy, to what Jeff was saying.

CROWLEY: Well...

SANDERS: Look, it is an enormously difficult job running a system that large.

I think, in many ways, Shinseki has gone a very good job, going from paper electronics -- paper claims to electronic claims records, in terms of education -- homelessness has been reduced.

CROWLEY: Right.

SANDERS: So, I don't think it's fair to blame Shinseki for all of the problems. Can he do better? Yes. Can we all do better?

Bottom line is, every veteran in this country is entitled to high-quality health care. And we have got to make sure that that happens.

MILLER: Candy -- Candy...

CROWLEY: Yes. I...

MILLER: ... we have 118 outstanding requests right now at the Department of Veterans Affairs in regards to oversight that they will not answer.

CROWLEY: Which is crazy. You're supposed to have oversight. Can't you just subpoena them? They subpoena everyone else. It just seems like, send us these people.

MILLER: We have -- we have -- we have subpoenaed them, and they will be appearing before our committee Wednesday night.

CROWLEY: All right. We will be watching.

Congressman Miller, Senator Sanders, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

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