CNN "State of the Union with Candy Crowley" - Transcript: Ukraine Elections

Interview

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

CROWLEY: It seems to me -- and let me start with you, Congressman -- that the everything that the U.S. has done, the West has done to this point begins with, if this continues, we're really going to do something harsher.

What is the definition of disrupting these elections in -- later in May?

REP. ELIOT ENGEL (D), NEW YORK: Well, the elections are scheduled for May 25. And I think it's very, very important that the elections go smoothly. Putin is trying everything he can do to disrupt the elections.

And I think what President Obama is trying to do is work in conjunction with our European allies. They are much more reluctant to do anything against Russia because they rely on Russia for their energy needs.

CROWLEY: They're tied with...

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: ... more than we are, right.

But the question is, I think if you look at what's going on in Ukraine in the eastern part right now, you can pretty much predict that elections there are going to be a little tough.

SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Well, it really is spinning out of control. And, you know, the sad fact is, sanctions haven't worked. All the devaluation of currency, the devaluation of the stock market occurred before the sanctions were ever put in place. Basically, that all happened right after the Russian parliament authorized use of force. And that's when all that devaluation occurs.

So, all the sanctions and the threats of sanctions really have had very little effect. And that's unfortunate. Vladimir Putin is only going to respond to action, strength and resolve. He's not going to respond to words. And that's certainly what we hear when we go over to Ukraine.

CROWLEY: But action is limited. When Americans hear action, they think, oh, we're going to send troops or do something, which is clearly off the table and is not going to happen. Would you agree that the sanctions thus far have failed to move Putin?

ENGEL: I would say that the sanctions so far have graduated, have been gradual, and I think they will continue to be gradual.

CROWLEY: Have they affected Putin's behavior?

ENGEL: Well, I think they have affected his behavior. I mean, he has all these troops poised at the Ukrainian border. He hasn't crossed the border yet.

I have to think that part of his calculation is that, if he does that, all bets are off and sanctions would kick in. Look, I'm for sanctions. I think it's sanctions that brought Iran to its knees, because it hurt their economy, and they're negotiating with us now. And I think Putin has to understand that, if he continues this nonsense, sanctions will bring his economy to its knees.

His economy right now is floundering. He really cannot afford to be so -- too wise about this.

CROWLEY: But, probably, I think the point that some Republicans are making that want stiffer sanctions now and in fact more -- some weaponry to go to the Ukrainian government, is that perhaps the Russian economy has been hurt, and there are -- there are signs that has happened, but it hasn't affected Putin.

So sanctions that hurt Russia aren't much good if they don't move Putin.

ENGEL: Well, I think, again, none of us know really what's in Putin's calculation. I agree. We do need sanctions. I think we do need to consider giving military aid to Ukraine.

We need to let Putin understand that any disruption -- and I think Merkel and Obama said that -- any disruption of the May 25 elections would bring a response from us.

CROWLEY: What is your definition of disruption in this case? I want to ask both of you.

Senator, what's your...

JOHNSON: We're seeing it right now.

(CROSSTALK)

CROWLEY: As far as elections are concerned.

JOHNSON: We're seeing it right now.

I mean, we are seeing, you know, these Russian sympathizers, and I would say really Russian agents in many respects, taking over administration buildings, fomenting unrest. And now we're really seeing this erupt into real violence. People are dying. And that's exactly what Vladimir Putin wants.

He wants to destabilize not only Ukraine, but he's been really undermining those breakaway republics for years, because he doesn't want to see successful democracy on his borders, because that destabilizes Russia, or certainly threatens his power.

And that came -- that's what this is all about. It makes no economic, rational sense for Putin to be doing what he's doing. He's only doing it to consolidate his own power. And we have to recognize that. So, nobody is talking about combat boots on the ground, but he's amassing tens of thousands of troops. We're sending a couple hundred in.

And I think what we really need to strengthen NATO.

CROWLEY: NATO, right.

JOHNSON: Yes. We need to show some training exercises. And we really should some provide defensive weaponry, anti-tank weapons, to Ukraine.

CROWLEY: Right. And I wanted to ask you about that, because this is the first time I have heard you -- perhaps you have said it before, but that you do think we ought to consider giving actual lethal weapons to the Ukrainian government, because, in essence, people who argue for this say, look, we're not going to go in and help them. They should at least have a little more wherewithal.

Everyone understands that they can't beat the Russian army, but, nonetheless, when you're trying to kind of crush this pro-Russia uprising, maybe some lethal weapons would help Ukraine at this point.

ENGEL: Well, I think it would, but I think that that's not it.

Look, our -- our NATO allies, the ones who were the former Soviet Bloc countries and former Eastern Bloc countries, they're scared to death. They think that, if Putin gets away with this, they may be next.

We have in NATO Article 5, which says an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. NATO -- the equation of NATO since the fall of the Soviet Union has really been that Russia would be cooperative. If Russia is now going to be an adversary, the whole calculus of NATO needs to change.

And, by the way, the U.S. provides most of the military aid to NATO. The countries are supposed to do 2 percent of their economy for the military if they're NATO members, and they haven't. Only three or four countries have. So, it really means that we're going to have to work in conjunction with NATO, because, if we don't, then the NATO alliance is dead.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

So, back to you all.

You see these pictures. You heard the ambassador. What does the U.S. do next? I feel like there are not a lot of arrows in this quiver. Right?

JOHNSON: Well, let me first say that we have got an excellent ambassador in Ambassador Pyatt, doing a really good job, very dedicated. One thing we have to understand is how effective Russia has been in terms of propaganda war. When we were there, I was asking, what are they -- what are they lying to Ukrainians about? They're telling them that they're going to -- that Kiev is going to be -- Kiev is going to be spending -- or sending death squads to pull people out of their homes.

They say they're going to be forced out of their Russian orthodox, Ukrainian orthodox faith and into Catholicism.

CROWLEY: Propaganda war.

JOHNSON: So, the propaganda is incredibly effective. We need to counter that in a far more robust fashion, because we have pretty well stopped our efforts the providing information.

(CROSSTALK)

ENGEL: The most -- the most important thing -- I met with Prime Minister Yatsenyuk when I was there.

The most important thing that they're looking for is, those elections on May 25 have to happen, and they have to happen so that the Ukrainian people can exercise their free will. It is so important. Putin's role, obviously, or his game is to try to disrupt them and then say that they're irrelevant, and that they're therefore invalid.

But we really cannot let him -- let him do that. And, again, Putin has to understand that sanctions will follow, tough sanctions on their banking sector, on their mining sector, on their financial sector will follow, just the way we did it for Iran, if Putin doesn't stop his nonsense.

CROWLEY: To both of you, a final question.

If Putin decided tonight to roll those tanks across the border from Russia into Eastern Ukraine, what stops him?

JOHNSON: Nothing will stop him. That's -- this is hindsight, but when Prime Minister Yatsenyuk was here just asking for pretty reasonable request of some small arms and ammunition, as a sign, as a sign of strength and resolve to support for Ukrainians, now, unfortunately, we didn't provide that.

And, again, nobody can predict exactly what would have happened, but I think it's that type of weakness that has given Vladimir Putin the -- the -- certainly the signal that he can continue to do these things with impunity. We have got to change the calculus.

ENGEL: What stops him is, he understands that, if he were to do that, tough sanctions would follow, both from Europe and from the United States.

I think that President Obama is starting slowly so we can be in conjunction with our European allies. But he has said there will be tough sanctions if Putin continues this nonsense.

CROWLEY: I want to quick ask you about a question that's out there in Nigeria, where, in mid-April, about 270-something, I think, Nigerian schoolgirls, teenagers were kidnapped by a terrorist group that is opposed to Western education, who think Western education is evil.

There was an interesting article today, an op-ed by Nicholas Kristof in "The New York Times," in which, in part, he said: "While there has been a major international search for the missing people on Malaysian Flight MH370, there's been no meaningful search for the even greater number of missing schoolgirls."

We have heard Secretary Kerry say this is terrible. The Nigerian government is apparently not doing much to help find these young women. We're told they're being sold to be wives of some of these terrorists.

It does seem -- and -- and Kristof spoke to the father of one of these girls, said, we need the U.N., we need the U.S. to do something. Is there something the U.S. can do?

JOHNSON: Well, one thing, I believe the U.S. who has been way too silent on the brutality, the lack of human rights in the Muslim world for women.

And I think that's one of the roles I think the Senate Foreign Relations Committee can play there, is hold hearings, highlight that, so that Americans, so the world sees this type of abuse. So it really is -- it's about communications. It's about awareness.

ENGEL: One thing that's true, the whole world looks to the United States, whether it's in Africa, whether it's in Ukraine, whether it's in Asia. There's no substitute for the United States.

And we -- my belief is that we need to be active and engaged. It doesn't mean boots on the ground. But there's so much that we can do.

CROWLEY: We could gather an international force, saying, find these girls. It's 270 teenage girls.

JOHNSON: Yes, America has to lead. And that's what's missing now. We simply aren't taking that leadership position across the world. And that makes the world a very -- much more dangerous place.

ENGEL: Well, I think we are taking a leadership position, but we do have allies. We have to work with them. I think we're doing it. And I think Putin understands that. CROWLEY: Congressman Eliot Engel, Senator Ron Johnson, thank you both for coming by today. I appreciate it.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

ENGEL: Thank you. CROWLEY: April was the strongest month for job growth in two years, but wages are stagnant, and the first- quarter growth was almost zero. Is the glass half-full or half-empty, and that's next.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source