MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript: Situation in Ukraine and Resulting Sanctions

Interview

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SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: Sure. Thank you.

MADDOW: President Obama is being very clear and very blunt that there will not and there will be never be American military -- an American military excursion in Ukraine on this issue. Do you agree with President Obama and his decision to be so blunt about that?

MURPHY: Yes -- no, he`s right, it wouldn`t be good for the United States. It wouldn`t be good for Ukraine ultimately. That doesn`t mean there isn`t an effort that is worthwhile to try to work to staff up the Ukrainian military in the long run. They certainly are dramatically underfunded. And that really should be our long-term effort. But right now, we`ve got to pursue a diplomatic path, and we ultimately have to make this really hurt for Russia.

They marched into Crimea because they simply didn`t believe that there would be a price to pay from the United States and Europe, and there`s still a chance that we can make them think differently if we move beyond these sanctions on individuals, move to real sanctions on the Russian economy in the coming days and weeks.

MADDOW: What kind of price to pay do you think might be meaningful American leverage? How severe would the sanctions have to be? Where do you think they should be targeted and does the president have power to do that sort of thing on his own or does that require Congress action?

MURPHY: Well, I think we`re going to move in Congress on the sanctions bill that will give him broad authority, but you saw 50,000 Russians out on the streets this last weekend and if you exact some real pain on the Russian economy, that does mean sanctioning the oil companies, cutting off the supplies into Europe, freezing the assets of banks and stopping European companies from doing business with Russian banks, then you will start to see a free fall of the Russian economy.

It will create enormous unrest inside Russia. That will make Putin think differently. But that of course requires Europe to work with us and right now there is a question as to whether Europe is willing to go through a little bit of pain on their own, because when you cut off gas to Germany, that will cost them some money. When you take Russian money out of the real estate economy in London, that will cost them some money. If we do that together, then Putin`s got a problem on his hands and he is going to certainly forestall plans to move into eastern Ukraine and may deal on the issue of Crimea.

MADDOW: That issue about the Russian banks specifically, I`m just going to press you on that a little bit. I think we`ve seen with the experience of sanctions on Iran, that when Iranian banks were sanctioned, when they essentially could not function in the international economy any more, and Iranian banking became a single -- a single nation experience, that cratered to the Iranian economy more than anything else that had been done with them on sanctions and it happened very fast and there was unrest in Iran because of it.

It was an incredibly effective pressure point. It`s just a really severe form of sanctions. What do you think President Obama would have to do to be able to rally the world to do that? Obviously it can`t be a unilateral decision, it has to be an international decision, it took a long time to get people around to the idea that that should happen for Iran. Is this diplomatically in the realm of the possible?

MURPHY: I think it is, in part because there is a real sense of nervousness along the eastern edge of NATO today. You know, five years ago, it was kind of preposterous to think that Russia would move on Ukraine. Well, five years from now, who knows where his sights will be especially if he gets away with this. And why it ultimately will work is that what Putin really is worried about is the kind of unrest that we saw on the streets of Kiev, leading to Yanukovych fleeing the country.

He`s worried that that is going to happen in Moscow, and so he`s got to shut down this kind of democracy on his border in a former Soviet Republic as quickly as possible. And so if you see this kind of economic unrest then very quickly Putin may think differently about this. This is the last thing he wants to see, is his regime and his administration go the same way as Yanukovych`s.

MADDOW: Very briefly, in terms of that timing, we have seen President Putin move very, very quickly. NBC News is reporting tonight that the numbers of troops -- the numbers of Russian troops massed very near the border with eastern Ukraine is pretty a breathtakingly large number of troops and it`s a well balanced set of troops in terms of what -- the way they are equipped if they did want to roll across that border in large numbers.

If President Putin did something in very short order, he`s obviously moving for quickly than sanctions can move. Is there some immediate response that do you think the United States should meet out at that point or do you think that it`s just one foot in front of the other in terms of lining up sanctions that really is our best response?.

MURPHY: Well, I think there`s nonlethal assistance we can give the Ukrainian military so when they`re forward-deployed on the border with Russia that they have the ability to stand. When we heard in Kiev when I was there this last weekend was that Ukrainians in that section of the country are going to fight, and so Russia is going to have blood on their hands, unlike what we`re seeing in Crimea right now.

All of that will start to change the world calculus on this issue, and also I think change the mood in Moscow, so the United States may not be able to diplomatically change this situation before Putin moves, but a movement into the eastern Ukraine has consequences in and of itself that will change how the world reacts and change the problem, I think, that Putin will have on his hand with respect to public support inside his own country.

MADDOW: Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, thank you for your time tonight, sir. This fast-moving story.

MURPHY: All right.

MADDOW: It`s really invaluable to have you here. Thanks.

MURPHY: Thanks, Rachel.

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