MSNBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Edward Snowden's Release of Classified Information

Interview

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DAVID GREGORY: I want to turn now to the majority leader in the Senate, Democrat from Illinois, Dick Durbin. Senator Durbin, welcome back. I certainly want to talk about the State of the Union, but I don't want to let that go. As a Democrat, somebody who was squarely behind President Obama when he ran, if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee, are these issues about the former president relevant to her? Is it an appropriate area of scrutiny, I think, in a 2016 campaign?

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Listen, David, Hillary Clinton has established her own reputation, her own name, and her own basis for running for president, should she choose to do it. And the issues that were raised by my colleague, Senator Paul, have been litigated in the public square for over a decade. For goodness sakes, let's judge Hillary Clinton based on her talents and her vision of America, should she choose to run for president.

DAVID GREGORY: Hard to separate one from the other, he just said.

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Well, I think you've got to be honest about it, though. I mean, there are people who believe that, though he may have done the wrong thing, he paid a heavy price for it in terms of the impeachment trial and beyond. And, you know, there was an organization created called MoveOn.org, and the reason was the American people said, "We get it. It was wrong. Now let's move on. Let's talk about the future. What are we going to do about the future of America?" And if the Republicans, like my friend, and he is my friend, Senator Paul, want to dwell on these chapters in the past, I don't think it's going to have much resonance.

DAVID GREGORY: I want to ask you about the N.S.A. What, firstly, should happen to Edward Snowden? What would you call on the attorney general to do, to get Snowden back to the United States and perhaps do a deal with him?

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Well, I think Snowden has to answer for having violated some of the most basic laws in our country, and endangering lives, and costing this country billions of dollars. Now, that's a fact. Did he also bring out in the public eye a lot of programs that we had been talking about in Congress in the most veiled terms? Now do we know much more about them? Are we debating them? It's true.

But don't overlook the fact that this man was entrusted with an awesome responsibility, and trusted with the most serious information. I don't know why, incidentally, when I look at his background, how he got this information. But he had it. And he took a vow, an oath that he would not disclose it because he knew it would make America more vulnerable to attack, and he did it anyway. That's a fact, and you can't overlook that.

DAVID GREGORY: All right. But on this program last week, the chairman of the House intelligence committee suggested that he is a spy for the Russians. Is there any evidence to corroborate that, to validate making that kind of charge?

SEN. DICK DURBIN: I haven't seen any.

DAVID GREGORY: Do you think there's an effort on the part of some lawmakers to try to smear him publicly?

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Well, I can't say that because Mr. Rogers is the Republican chair of the House intelligence committee and yet a person I have a respect for. I think he's professional, a former F.B.I. agent. I take what he says very seriously. I have not seen any evidence to suggest what he said.

DAVID GREGORY: The future of spying in America is going to be something that Congress is going to take up, how much authority these intelligence agencies should have. Do you think that these programs that allow the government to collect this bulk meta data, should they be here to stay?

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Well, we have to change these programs. The president challenged us to do it. I have spoken on the floor of the Senate for years about this program, but only in the most circumspect way. I couldn't be specific. I couldn't tell the details that we now know. But the fact is we have to change that.

If we have a suspicion of a person, an area called 312 in Chicago, connected with terrorism, we don't need to collect all of the phone records of every person living in the 312 area code. That's just unacceptable, and the government shouldn't hold that information. The president has challenged Congress and the attorney general to come up with an alternative to keep us safe, but to not create an opportunity for the government to overreach.

DAVID GREGORY: Accountability time for President Obama. Tough year in 2013. At the State of the Union last year, what were the big issues? It was gun control, immigration, raising the minimum wage; didn't get any of those. What's different this year?

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Well, I think and I hope that what we saw with the budget agreement at the very end of last year and the beginning of this year is an indication of a new bipartisan spirit. We certainly need it on Capitol Hill. Paul Ryan, Republican from Wisconsin, Patty Murray, our Democratic Senate budget committee chair, sat down and hammered out a budget, and then Barbara Mikulski and Congressman Rogers sat down and put together the spending bill.

This was an amazing breakthrough, we haven't done this for years. And at one point, Speaker Boehner had to stand up to his Tea Party Republicans and say, "I know it's bipartisan, I know it's a compromise; we're going forward." If continues in that spirit, maybe we'll get a farm bill, after waiting on the House for two years.

DAVID GREGORY: Do you get an increase in the debt ceiling without a fight?

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Well, I'm not going to speak for the Republican Party. The president's position's clear: We should not play Russian roulette with America's economy. We shouldn't jeopardize its economic growth and kill off jobs because of another political squabble.
We went through a 16-day government shutdown because Senator Cruz and a lot of rightwing Republicans thought that was a good thing to do. It was a disaster. And I hope they don't repeat it again when it come to this debt ceiling.

DAVID GREGORY: All right, Senator Durbin, we'll be watching Tuesday night. Thank you so much for your time.

SEN. DICK DURBIN: Thanks, David.

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