CNN Crossfire - Transcript

CNN Crossfire - Transcript

WATKINS: The House Government Reform Committee, under the leadership of Virginia Republican Tom Davis, is launching hearings on steroids in Major League Baseball. The possibility of players using an unfair advantage to fuel their achievements could taint the game for years. But some people don't think Congress should be involved.

Two members of the committee join us from Capitol Hill, Democrat Paul Kanjorski of Pennsylvania and California Republican Darrell Issa.

Well, men, welcome to the CROSSFIRE.

CARVILLE: Hello.

REP. DARRELL ISSA ®, CALIFORNIA: Good to be back.

CARVILLE: Thank you.

CARVILLE: Congressman Issa, one of the reasons, the main reason, we're told by the people on the Hill, that they're doing this is for the youth of America. Has Congress gotten so out of touch with the American people that they actually think that the youth of America care what a bunch of congressmen think?

ISSA: Well, James, as soon as you realize that professional baseball players are doing steroids and you want to become a professional baseball player, you have to do steroids to get to the majors, you see it trickle all the way down into high school and college ball. So, it is the youth of America that are experimenting with these illegal drugs in order to make that cut to make it to the majors.

CARVILLE: Right. Congressman, I understand that, in 1982, this-I have been following sports for a long time-Lyle Alzado, who was in the NFL, took steroids, had a brain cancer, which he says was the result of steroids. Ben Johnson won the Olympics. His eyeballs was stuck out about two feet in front of his eye. He ran the 100 in about four seconds, he was so pumped up.

Every baseball fans see these guys. They show up at the plate. They don't have a neck. I don't know why they would want to look like that.

CARVILLE: But this has been going on for a while. Why this epiphany right now on March 17, right before the baseball season?

ISSA: You know, James, you have got to ask when the good time is.

In 1991, the federal government acted to make steroids illegal. In 1995, '96, '97, there was scandal after scandal in which they kept promising that there would be something about it. Now, to be candid, a book comes out that tells all and people are pushing the accusations back and forth. And, as the chairman said, the youth of America are realizing that, if you want to make the majors today, you have got to do steroids. And it's not right. It's not legal.

And we have to do something about it. We do have an obligation in Congress, the kind of oversight of this monopoly which we created. They have an antitrust exemption that says they can do anything they want in the way of getting together and agreeing to standards that would prevent this, and yet they haven't shown that leadership in over a decade, since this problem began.

CARVILLE: Thank you, sir.

WATKINS: Congressman Kanjorski, you have made it clear that you don't think that Congress should have anything to do with this. You think that this is not matter for the U.S. Congress to be deliberating.

But, by the same token, former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent said just today that Congress has every right to investigate this. I mean, after all, we have people-some people have died from steroid abuse and we have lots of kids who emulate these athletes who might be inclined to take steroids as well.

Why do you disagree with that? Why don't you think that this is-that this is an appropriate role for Congress?

REP. PAUL KANJORSKI (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, you miss my point. I'm not for steroids. And we-the Congress has a perfect right to examine the use of steroids. What I'm opposed to is the use of the subpoena power to bring people in and acquire into their...

WATKINS: ... serious issue? Is what you're saying, Congressman, is that this really isn't that serious an issue, that this is something that we could kind of gloss over? After all, Pete Rose was banished from baseball for gambling. Is this not more serious to...

KANJORSKI: I hope he wasn't-I hope he wasn't banished by the Congress of the United States.

I think there are very serious matters that the Congress should examine into and they should use the subpoena power when it's important and they can't discover that information through any other means or method. Then they can use the subpoena power.

WATKINS: You don't think this is important?

KANJORSKI: But you just don't use the subpoena power to hype a book or to embarrass people.

WATKINS: Do you think that this is important to the kids in your district? I'm sure you have young people that live in your district that plays sports that look up to these athletic figures.

KANJORSKI: Absolutely.

WATKINS: Is this important to them?

KANJORSKI: Absolutely.

But, then, if we are going find out, are we going to call every baseball player and find out and every football player and every college athlete? Why are we just going to call seven people and of what importance are they? The fact of the matter is, the committee has not laid a predicate for this examination.

So, all we're waiting for now is, on Thursday, a tremendous, sensational hearing, where some people will be asked questions that may put them in conflict with a prior secret testimony before grand juries, may subject them to perjury, and, at the very least, if they don't wish to testify, will embarrass them by the claiming of the benefit of the Fifth Amendment.

I just don't think it's necessary. The Congress of the United States hasn't issued subpoenas and threatened and brought contempt citations for 19 years. And out of-since the last 52 years, we've only done it 25 times; 14 of those times were by the Un-American Activities Committee. And I think, very often, the use of subpoena smacks of what we fought all these 50 years to get away from, an abusive use by Congress of an extraordinarily powerful power to invade into the freedom and liberty of American citizens. It's wrong to do it without cause.

CARVILLE: Congressman, Congressman, I think that a lot of sports fans, and myself included, we've been knowing this stuff has been going on in the NFL. We've been knowing it's going on in the Olympics. We've been knowing it's going on in baseball forever.

And then, finally, it blows up. Baseball gets its act together. The players, they get together and have a deal and they're getting ready to start the season, that now the Congress of the United States wakes up and says, oh, my God, there are steroids in sports. And people are kind of scratching their heads. And where have you guys been all this time?

CARVILLE: And at the very time that they get their act together, we're going to come right before the baseball season on the day of the opening of the NCAA basketball tournament. To tell you the truth, I'm more interested in whether LSU can beat UAB in Boise, Idaho, than I am in dragging a couple of ballplayers out-up on Capitol Hill.

And I think that's what most people are saying. If these guys are getting their act together, why do it now? Let's see how the season goes and put these things off and have them in December.

ISSA: Well, you know, James, you mentioned the Olympics.

And there is no question, the Olympics have the gold standard for steroids testing and other drug testing. And if the unions represent-and, you know, that they represent the players and the owners were able to reach an agreement on that kind of mandatory drug testing for the privilege of being a professional baseball player-it's not a right to be a multimillion dollar slugger. It's a privilege.

And if, in fact, that standard was met, we wouldn't be having this obligation. But there need to be mandatory drug testing. That's recognized by the Olympic Committee and it's been in place for a number of years. Well, the fact is that the majority of the owners-and I've talked to owners of several professional baseball-or professional sports teams, including baseball, and they say, look, we'd love nothing better than to have mandatory testing, but we've got to get past the union and their representatives in order to get that kind of testing.

And they're standing behind civil rights and privacy and all these false issues, when, in fact, there should-we should know the players are clean and we should know that, if you don't do drugs, you can still make the majors if you're the best, rather than, today, where you know you have to do drugs because those enhancing drugs will get you to the majors. It shouldn't be that way. And we have got to make sure that it's a clean sport.

CARVILLE: Excuse me. Thank you, Congressman.

WATKINS: Just ahead, are kids getting mixed messages from million-dollar contracts rewarding steroid use?

CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

Major League Baseball has already turned over 400 pages of documents to a congressional committee looking into steroids in the American pastime. There are already grand juries looking into this issue. So, what benefit can be gained from Congress getting involved? Two members of the committee are still in the CROSSFIRE, Pennsylvania Democrat Paul Kanjorski and California Republican Darrell Issa.

WATKINS: Congressman Kanjorski, how do you tell kids who see these players using steroids signing multi-million dollar contracts, how do you tell these kids that they're supposed to play by the rules and stay clean? Are you saying that Congress shouldn't have any role in doing that?

KANJORSKI: No, I'm saying that Congress should not sensationalize what we're doing.

We certainly should find out. For instance, I'd like to know who manufactures steroids., what's the nature of how they're distributed, who gives the prescriptions, who's making the money in the...

WATKINS: You're open-you're open, then, to hearings on those issues, then? You're open to hearings on those issues?

KANJORSKI: Absolutely. I have no problem with hearings.

I am merely saying, I think jumping ahead, issuing subpoenas to seven ballplayers, who, at best, I think, can answer a question: Have you in the past or do you now use steroids, yes or no? That's all they're really going to be useful as witnesses. And I think it's going to interfere with their freedom and their liberty and could embarrass them and could subject them to perjury.

WATKINS: Whose freedom and liberty?

KANJORSKI: And I just don't think-I think that's an abuse of the subpoena power of the Congress.

CARVILLE: Congressman Issa, if George Will, my friend and fellow baseball fan, is watching this, we're going to have to peel him off the ceiling, because you suggested that Congress would get involved in union negotiations now. I mean, you all don't have enough to do without getting involved in labor negotiations between the owners and the union?

ISSA: You know, you know, James, James...

ISSA: George Will sits on the board of one of those Major League teams. I assure you...

CARVILLE: Well, I understand. I don't agree with everything George Will says.

ISSA: Well, but...

CARVILLE: But there are a lot of conservatives that would say Congress shouldn't get involved in labor negotiations between the Players Union and the owners.

ISSA: You're absolutely right. We should...

CARVILLE: And you have suggested-you have suggested that, if you don't like the negotiation-if you don't like the negotiation, that the Congress would get involved. I'm stunned that a conservative would say that.

ISSA: Oh, just the opposite.

What I'm saying is, that, in fact, because we grant the antitrust exemption, because they haven't cleaned up in over a decade of talking about it, the steroid problem, what we should do is say, steroids are illegal. Steroid must be-steroids must be tested for. And you have to come to us with an acceptable zero-tolerance drug and drug rehabilitation system. That's all we're asking for.

But just as we give the unions-or just as we give the unions an opportunity to negotiate against a monopoly that is incredibly profitable, that is the national pastime, to say that you must come up with a system to be-that will be mandatory to remain drug free is not unreasonable. We interfere all the...

CARVILLE: Well, suppose you don't like instant replay. Can Congress get involved? Maybe they don't like the instant replay rule.

KANJORSKI: Absolutely.

CARVILLE: I mean, at some point, isn't there a limit to what government power can do?

ISSA: Look, instant replays don't kill people. Instant replays don't lead to the youth of America crossing over the Tijuana border and going into those unregulated pharmacies without a prescription and getting shot up and then going back across. And it happens every day outside of San Diego.

This is an epidemic in America.

ISSA: And it's generated by professional sports being the standard to use it and succeed.

KANJORSKI: And I would take issue with that finding. I just have to say that, you know, baseball...

CARVILLE: I'm sorry, but it's the bottom of the ninth and there's three out and a called third strike, guys.

CARVILLE: And we got to go.

KANJORSKI: Great...

CARVILLE: Is the Bush administration really considering a plan to kick reporters out of the White House? I'll have the details next on CROSSFIRE.

Thank-thank you so much. Thank you so much, both of you.

WATKINS: Thanks, guys.

CARVILLE: Great show.

ISSA: Thank you.

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