MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript: Affordable Care Act and Government Shutdown

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U.S. Congressman Scott Perry is a Republican from Pennsylvania.

Congressman, this is really difficult to figure out, but what do you think Mr. Boehner, the speaker of the House, is doing here? He said he doesn`t want the government to shut down next Tuesday, yet he`s also playing to the people on the right, the hard right of your party, who are saying, You can`t go along with just keeping the government open. You have to make a demand like killing a law of the land, which is the Affordable Care Act.

I`ve never heard of the Congress holding up the government, saying they will not continue to exist unless we kill a law of the land. It`s never been done that I`ve ever heard of. What do you think?

REP. SCOTT PERRY (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Come on, Chris. You`re a student of history. This has been done on many occasions...

MATTHEWS: When has it ever happened before? Name the first time or last time. When has it ever happened, they`ve done this to kill a law?

PERRY: The debt -- the debt ceiling has come up since 1962, or 1963, to be exact.

MATTHEWS: Yes, sure, I know. I know all about that.

PERRY: This has been a continuing negotiation.

MATTHEWS: Well, answer my question. When has it ever been used to kill a law that`s been enacted by the Congress and signed by the president, and the president got reelected after doing it? It`s called health care. The American people supported it.

PERRY: And so did a Republican Congress got elected at the same time. And the American people said, we don`t like that law, and they want you to change it.

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MATTHEWS: OK. I can only -- Congressman, I can only ask the question. If you don`t want to answer it, just say, I don`t want to answer the question.

PERRY: I`m happy to answer the question.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK. When has the Congress ever said the government will not continue of the United States if we don`t kill a law that we passed and that was signed the president?

PERRY: First of all, the Congress is not saying the government will cannot continue. It`s a fallacious argument, Chris, and you know it.Things are going to be paid for, and the president is the one who`s revising history. He continues to.

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MATTHEWS: Those are words -- you`re speaking words, but not an answer. Those are words. Those are good. Those are words. But will you answer the question with words? Here`s the question.

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PERRY: Those are words that the president said when it was his turn.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, you have been elected. I respect that. I thank you for coming on the show. I put to you a simple question.

Give me the precedent when the United States government has been held hostage so that we kill a law that`s been passed by the Congress, signed by the president. Give me one example.

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PERRY: Those are your words that the government is being held hostage. This is a negotiation by an intractable president...

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MATTHEWS: OK. Four time, this is the last time I will ask it.

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PERRY: Hold on -- hold on -- who will negotiate with Syria, who will negotiate with Putin, who will negotiate with Iran, but won`t negotiate with 50 percent of his countrymen.

MATTHEWS: That`s good words. That`s rhetoric. That`s good rhetoric. Now, let me ask you the fourth time, and I won`t ask it again.

PERRY: It`s the same thing you use, Chris.

MATTHEWS: No. Let me ask you a question, not rhetoric, rhetorically. This isn`t a rhetorical question.

PERRY: Yes. OK.

MATTHEWS: This is an...

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MATTHEWS: ... question. You said it happens all the time, you said, in previous debates and fights over the debt ceiling. Fair enough. Has there been a time the Congress held up the president of the United States and said kill a law of the land as the deal to continue holding the government open? Has it ever happened? Just say it`s never happened before and we`re done.

PERRY: I don`t know if it`s ever happened before.

MATTHEWS: OK.

PERRY: But I can tell you this, Chris.

Hold on. I can tell you this. The 18th Amendment to the Constitution was prohibition, which was repealed by the 21st Amendment.

MATTHEWS: I know.

PERRY: It was the law of the land and it was repealed. Slavery was legal at some point, Chris. Do you think that should still be legal today? Is that what you`re saying, at all odds?

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MATTHEWS: Well, you know the history, of course, of prohibition was passed after World War I and then of course was repealed under the Democratic administration of Franklin Roosevelt a decade-and-a-half later.

So, yes, it was repealed after it was tried and it failed, certainly.

PERRY: Right. And that`s what`s happening now. This is being tried and it`s failing. It`s failing.

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MATTHEWS: When does it goes into effect? October 1. It goes into effect next Tuesday.

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PERRY: Well, let me ask you this. When it goes into effect...

MATTHEWS: How`s it failed?

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PERRY: Hold on a second, Chris.

MATTHEWS: I`m holding on.

PERRY: What parts of prohibition were repealed or held up or delayed by the administration before they ever happened? Isn`t there about 20 places that Obamacare has been held up by the administration because they`re not ready to go?

How many is that? Where`s the precedent for that? Yet, we`re going to roll on anyhow.

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MATTHEWS: The Volstead Act actually put it into effect.

PERRY: We`re going to force this on the American people knowing, knowing that it`s not right because of partisan pride.

MATTHEWS: Force it on it? Let me explain it how it works. The Congress of the United States voted by a majority in the House of Representatives, and the Senate by a 60-vote supermajority.

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PERRY: All one party. Not bipartisan. It was all one party. Let`s remind everybody of that.

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MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. Everything you`re doing is by one party.

PERRY: This is the left wing.

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute.

PERRY: This is the ultra left wing of the Democrat Party having absolutely every bit of their way. This is not bipartisan. This is saying for 50 percent of the country, we`re not interested in what you have to offer.

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MATTHEWS: Sixty votes in the Senate was comprised of, first of all, several Republicans, but it wasn`t all Democrats. And, secondly...

PERRY: How many in the House? How many in the House, Chris? How many in the House, Chris?

MATTHEWS: Well, wait a minute. What`s the point? What you`re doing right now is an entire partisan effort, so why are you knocking partisanship here?

PERRY: You seem to be fine. Why are you knocking partisanship here, but yet it`s OK on your end? I mean, I could turn that around on you.

MATTHEWS: No. I`m just saying the United States government will stop working, it will cease functioning next Tuesday if you have your way.

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PERRY: That`s your terminology. And you know it`s not true.

MATTHEWS: OK. What`s the other terminology?

PERRY: People on Social Security are getting checks. Medicare patients are going to get their checks. People in the Army are going to receive their paychecks.

MATTHEWS: Oh, but the government`s just not going to function.

PERRY: No, the government is going to function.

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MATTHEWS: So why are we arguing about this? So, you deny the government`s shutting down next Tuesday. Fine. That`s your point of view.

PERRY: Yes.

MATTHEWS: How about the default on the federal government`s debts? Will that be -- matter? Or are you also one of those who deny that`s going to happen?

PERRY: Will it matter? Let me tell you what matters to the American people, $17 trillion of debt and trillion-dollar deficits unbridled with no plan to change it.

MATTHEWS: No.

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PERRY: And again the president is just saying just raise the limit on the credit card. It doesn`t mean anything. It`s not your long-term debt.

MATTHEWS: No. No. No.

PERRY: People in America understand what it is. They know what it is.

MATTHEWS: No, here`s what they do understand.

The U.S. -- Congressman, the reason why your body of Congress has got about an 8 percent approval rating right now, 8 percent, is because people know that every dollar spent by the U.S. government has been approved by the U.S. House of Representatives. And the spending has initiated there.

Not -- it didn`t come from the Senate, it didn`t come from the White House. The spending bills in the United States Congress all come from the House of Representatives, which you`re a member of. That`s what the public understands.

This attempt not to pay the debts once the money has been spent, they get the joke there too. And that`s showing up in the polls. The people are smarter than you think they are. They know that you guys spent the money, but won`t pay the bills. They know that.

PERRY: Come on.

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MATTHEWS: And that`s your problem.

PERRY: Do they think that the president had nothing to do with this?

Do you know that the exchanges are going to cost an additional $353 million that was never part of this?

MATTHEWS: OK. OK.

PERRY: Everybody`s health care cost is going up. That`s a promise the president made that did not happen.

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PERRY: This is driving the debt, and they want something done about it. And they don`t want the president to walk away from it.

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MATTHEWS: You`re raising your voice. Let me suggest something to you.You have got now a minute.

PERRY: Sure.

MATTHEWS: I want you in a minute -- how you`re going to prevent the government from shutting down next Tuesday and then how are you going to prevent government from defaulting on its debt.

PERRY: What we`re going to do is we`re going to bring a plan that`s reasonable that the American people are asking for, that they stand behind to control the deficit and control the debt and take it to the Senate and take it to the president, who has said it was a precondition I will not negotiate.

Who says that that really, truly wants to move America forward as opposed to being captured by their partisan pride? Who says that? We`re going to take a reasonable plan and we`re going to negotiate in good faith.

MATTHEWS: OK.

PERRY: If he doesn`t want to do something and Harry Reid doesn`t want to do something, it`s on them, not the Congress.

MATTHEWS: OK. And now a reasonable -- a reasonable set of demands include getting rid of Obamacare for a year, it means getting -- putting in the Keystone pipeline.

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PERRY: It`s not ready to go, Chris. It`s not ready to go, by the president`s own admission.

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MATTHEWS: Can I read your list? Can I read your list? Did you want to read it?
PERRY: We`re trying to help him. We`re trying to help him do something...

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MATTHEWS: By the way, why is a congressman from Gettysburg so interested in offshore oil development in the Gulf?

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MATTHEWS: Why do you want it?

PERRY: Because I`m tired of being tied to foreign and Middle East oil.

MATTHEWS: OK. So you`re into all the oil business -- you`re into the oil business situation here. You like that.

PERRY: I`m into what`s good for America. That`s what I`m into.

MATTHEWS: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: What has that got to do with paying our debts? These are demands by the oil state congresspeople. They insist they want the money before they go along with paying America`s debts.

PERRY: I`m in an oil state, Chris?

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MATTHEWS: And you`re going along with that from Gettysburg? Why are you doing this? It`s not in your interests.

PERRY: Because it`s the right thing for America.

MATTHEWS: OK.

PERRY: It`s because the American citizens are demanding it. That`s why.

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MATTHEWS: Well, I have looked at that list of 10 things. It looks like it`s written by the oil industry. And I`m surprised that you`re involved with such a paper.

PERRY: I`m surprised that you read any of it, first of all.

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MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What`s that mean?

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MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. What did you just say? You`re surprised I read it. You`re surprised I read it.

PERRY: I`m surprised you read it, yes, absolutely.

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PERRY: You know that most Democrats -- as a matter of fact, I`m surprised any Democrats read the bill. Nancy Pelosi said you got to pass it before you can find out what is in it.

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MATTHEWS: You know what you can do with that? You can be excused, because you just accused me of not doing my job. And that`s a big mistake here.

Congressman, thank you for coming on. I mean it. I wish you hadn`t made that last remark. I think it was a cheap shot. Scott Perry, it was cheap. Don`t laugh.

PERRY: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: It wasn`t cheap -- it was really cheap.

PERRY: Well, you have made some cheap shots at me, too.

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MATTHEWS: No, no, I didn`t. I didn`t. I was fair. You were -- you`re in bed with the oil industry. Anyway, thank you.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

PERRY: I`m in bed with the oil industry?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I`m looking at your votes.

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