MSNBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript - IRS Targeting and Immigration Reform
Interview
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GREGORY: Right. We'll kind of-- come back to this. Let me move on now to the Democratic Senator from New York, Chuck Schumer. Senator, welcome back.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (Chairman, Democratic Policy Committee/Judiciary Committee/Finance Committee): Hi.
GREGORY: Let me start
SEN. SCHUMER: Glad to be with you.
GREGORY: Let me star on this issue of the future of the attorney general. We have seen whether it's TheHuffington Post or Jonathan Turley, the law professor, writing in USA Today that he should resign. Senator Roberts saying he should resign. Tom Brokaw saying this morning, "Hard to see how he could hold on to his job under some of this pressure." Do you think the attorney general keeps his job and should he?
SEN. SCHUMER: Look, I haven't-- there've been all kinds of accusations, but I haven't seen anything that would prevent him from continuing to do his job. Let's not forget, for about two years many of our hard right colleagues spent a lot of their time on Fast and Furious and I'm sure there were calls for Holder to step down. He continued to do his job well. And then the IG exonerated him on Fast and Furious. So, obviously, if there's wrongdoing, we should find out who did it. But the president has confidence in Holder and I believe he's going to stay.
GREGORY: And you have confidence.
SEN. SCHUMER: Listen, yes. The-- as I said, I haven't seen a single accusation that prevents him from doing his job.
GREGORY: But what about whether he committed perjury in front of the House Committee when he said that he's never been involved in the potential prosecution of a journalist and yet his own affidavit names James Rosen of FOX News as a co-conspirator for getting classified information.
SEN. SCHUMER: Yeah. No, I don't think there's perjury. There's been no prosecution or attempted prosecution of any journalist so there can't be perjury. The warrant is a per-- is a goal-- is a tool to get information. And I don't think the two were contradictory. I don't think any good criminal lawyer would say there's a scintilla of evidence of perjury.
GREGORY: If there is a long investigation by the judiciary committee into the attorney general, is that a good thing for the country?
SEN. SCHUMER: Well, look, we should investigate and find out what went wrong particularly with the IRS situation. I think the other two on the media shield, we need some new laws. That's for sure. And we need an independent arbiter as your panel pointed out. It's one big mess. And you cannot have the Justice Department be both the player and the umpire. And so the bill that Lindsey Graham and I have proposed, where there'd be an independent arbiter, a judge to balance the two very real needs of freedom of the press and preventing leaks as the way to go.
GREGORY: But this doesn't really cover
SEN. SCHUMER: In terms of the IRS
GREGORY: national security issues?
SEN. SCHUMER: Yeah, sorry.
GREGORY: This doesn't cover national security issues, does it, the shield law?
SEN. SCHUMER: Yes, it-- yes, it does.
GREGORY: How so?
SEN. SCHUMER: Obviously it provides more leeway on national security as it should than other kinds of leaks. But in three ways. First, if the administration is saying it's national security, you have an independent arbiter determine if it is. Second they can determine the ambit. So for instance, in the AP, the judge could say, well, maybe getting the phone records of four of these AP reporters has to do with national security. But the other 16 don't. And finally and maybe most importantly, it requires there be notice to the news organization. So AP or FOX News would get notice and could go to court and try and suppress it.
GREGORY: Let me ask you about the IRS. New information coming out about lavish spending at some of these conferences. There's even a new video that's been produced that IRS employees getting together preparing line dances for conferences. They're spending a lot of money on producing these kinds of videos. A lot of companies do this. But we're talking about government employees. And in the context of everything that's happening, this has got to be the last thing the IRS needs.
SEN. SCHUMER: Absolutely. And the new director, the acting director of the IRS said he would put an end to it. It's outrageous. Any kind of wasteful spending like this must be put down, particularly at these times.
GREGORY: You know, when-- you're talking about the IRS investigations and the targeted con-- conservative groups. You lobbied the IRS to look into these groups. You didn't specify conservative groups. But there are those on the right who say that you and others effectively did, that you were really targeting conservative groups not to be given that tax-exempt status.
SEN. SCHUMER: No, that's absolutely not true. First, our letter came a year and a half after they'd started targeting the Tea Party. So it couldn't have caused it, that's for sure. But second, look what our letter says. It says form a bright line and determine how much political activity a so-called social welfare organization can do before they lose their tax-exempt status. Our letter is actually the solution. I would propose that we say-- we pass legislation that more than 10 percent-- if more than 10 percent of your activity is political activity, you lose your tax exemption. And if you had a bright line it wouldn't be up to some bureaucrat to make their own determination, perhaps wrongly based on political needs. It would be the same standard for all groups, liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican. That's what we need and our letter is actually the solution to the problem.
GREGORY: You're obviously focused on immigration reform. You're part of the Gang of Eight. This is a question about the president's agenda in light of all of these scandals and controversies that the administration faces. I talked to one of Bager-- Boehner's top guys this week who said, "Look, if senators think they can get a lot of Republican votes in the Senate and that's automatically going to transfer to getting it passed in the House, they're wrong. It's going to be a long slog in the House as well."
SEN. SCHUMER: Well, first, we're going to put immigration on the floor starting on June 10. I predict it will pass the Senate by July 4th. We're hoping to get 70 votes, up to 70 votes, which means a lot of Republicans and we're willing to entertain amendments that don't damage the core principles of the bill but improve the bill just as we did in committee. We came out of the committee very strong. Our Gang of Eight stuck together and we picked up Orrin Hatch's vote as well. But let me say this about in general. These-- these so-called scandals have not diverted us one iota. You have on the Gang of Eight, three of the people who've been most critical of the president on some of these other issues. But I think the eight of us realize how important this is. More important probably than any of these scandals, to the future of America, for job growth, for the middle class, for straightening out this system. And it hasn't interfered one iota. We are moving forward because we believe in a bipartisan way. This is so vital for America and we'll have a good bill. Senator-- Congressman Boehner is in a box. There are about 60 or 70 of his people who are against any immigration reform. But at the same time, he knows that the Republican Party will be consigned to a minority party for a generation if they're anti-immigration. So my advice to him is, let's see what happens in the Senate bill. If we can come out of the Senate with close to a majority of the Republican senators and almost every Democrat, that may change the equation in the House and the thinking in the House among mainstream Republicans. And they may want to go for our bill.
GREGORY: Do you have a warning for Republicans who want to make the IRS and personal issues affecting the President the main theme of 2014?
SEN. SCHUMER: My warning to the Republicans is look at 1998. All they did is spend their time on the impeachment of Bill Clinton. And for the first time the incumbent president didn't lose seats in the House. Certainly there should be investigations and of the IRS, which I think is the really serious one of these three. The others are serious, but we haven't seen wrong doing. The press shield area is a mess and you need independent legislation as I mentioned. But if they go too far, they will lose. And the-- the looking into these investigations is no substitute for focusing on the economy, jobs and the middle class. And Republicans are right to want to look into these things. But if they emphasize it too much they're going to pay a price at the polls in 2014.
GREGORY: All right. Senator Schumer, thank you very much as always.
SEN. SCHUMER: Nice to talk to you.
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