MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript - Benghazi

Interview

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MATTHEWS: Well, is the president right? Is the issue of how the talking
points were changed a political sideshow?

Well, U.S. Congressman Michael Turner is on the Oversight and Government
Reform Committee, which held last week`s hears on Benghazi.
Congressman, thanks for coming on.

What is your view of this whole thing?

REP. MICHAEL TURNER (R), OHIO: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Do you think the president has been dishonest? He`s saying
basically his integrity has been challenged. Let`s go to the issue of the
talking points. Do you think he was involved in cleaning them up, changing
focus on them, covering up in some way to get reelected? What do you think
his role was? Let`s start with him.

TURNER: Well, first off, the truth is never a sideshow.

And what we learned in the past week with the congressional hearings is
that the narrative that was coming out of the administration from these
talking points has no basis in fact. It is, in fact, a fiction. Mr.
Hicks, who testified before us, said that Susan Rice hadn`t even spoken to
him, the lead diplomat on the ground, after the ambassador was killed.

And, you know, he clearly said that there was no demonstrations, that this
was a terrorist attack. They knew it was a terrorist attack. They knew
who had perpetrated the terrorist attack. They`ve already claimed credit.
And yet the White House and the administration chose to write a narrative
that was based on fiction.

MATTHEWS: So you know the president was involved, or who in the White
House? You said the White House. Let`s nail you down here.

Who told Susan Rice to say what she said that day? Was that the president,
personally, deputizing her to say it was a spontaneous demonstration that
evolved into a terrorist attack of some form? What do you think did it?
Was it the president or one of his people? What do you know?

TURNER: Well, what we know is that Susan Rice --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: No, do you know if the president was involved? Just tell me.

TURNER: -- created this fiction. And Susan Rice went on national
television and made statements that had no --

MATTHEWS: I watched it.

TURNER: -- no basis in truth.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I saw everything you saw. I want you to tell me something I
don`t know.

TURNER: When you have a lead administration official --

MATTHEWS: Tell me something I don`t know. OK. You`re repeating yourself.

TURNER: When you have a lead administration official go on television and
absolutely not tell the truth --

MATTHEWS: This is the third time you`re saying it.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I`m asking you, what`s the president`s role -- let me ask you
another question again. The same question again. I`ve asked you three
times. What did the president know to your knowledge in terms of having
her say what she said on "Meet the Press" that Sunday? I watched it. You
watched it.

Did the president have a role in that or not?

TURNER: I think he has a role today. And that is as you and I both have
said, we know what she said is not true. And the administration insists --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I agree with that. The fifth time you`re saying it.

TURNER: -- that it wasn`t true.

MATTHEWS: OK. So, you don`t know any more than I do.

TURNER: It`s wrong for the White House to perpetrate this truth. I can
tell you that I know from our hearing that Mr. Hicks wasn`t -- who was on
the ground, was not even consulted as the administration, who knows why,
perpetrated this narrative that was based on fiction.

MATTHEWS: OK.

Let me ask you, do you know if the secretary of state at the time, Hillary
Clinton, was involved in any way in prepping Susan Rice for that appearance
on "Meet the Press"? When you said -- I think appropriately, you said,
didn`t give the full or accurate story. Was the secretary of state
involved?

Because what`s going on here, the big names are getting --

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: The story that she gave was fiction.

MATTHEWS: Sixth time you said it. I just want to tell me who did it.

TURNER: The administration official goes on national television and says a
fiction -- well, that`s what obviously we`re trying to get down to. Now,
the president says he has released e-mails only because the Congress asked.
He`s not stepped forward and said, excuse me, I`ve now learned that a lead
administration official on my behalf told a fiction to the nation. That`s
what he should be focusing on. And that`s what we`re trying to find out --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Fair enough. In the course of your investigations, Mr. Turner,
have you come up with any e-mail that suggests the president was involved?
Any mail that suggests that the White House through Carney or anybody else
seriously changed the message of that performance by the ambassador to the
U.N?

TURNER: The -- well, I`m going --

MATTHEWS: Any evidence supporting this discussion?

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: The e-mails show which is why there`s an ongoing investigation
that there was a dialogue that changed this narrative to a fiction. What
we need to find out is who did this, why did they do it?

MATTHEWS: OK, so you don`t know.

TURNER: And why isn`t the White House coming forward and saying they told
the American public a lie? It`s a fiction.

MATTHEWS: No, you just said you didn`t know the White House told the lie.
I`ve been asking you now for five minutes to give me any evidence you have
that the president was involved --

TURNER: We have --

MATTHEWS: No, you have to answer this question. You can`t skip my
questions and end up with an accusation. You just said the president did
this. Tell me how you know this.

TURNER: Chris, what`s great is you get to ask the questions and but I get
to do the answers. You agreed with me that what Susan Rice said was a
fiction. Do we agree there?

MATTHEWS: Yes, I agreed with you five times.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I continue to ask you a simple question. What role did the
president play here? What role did he play, sir?

TURNER: What`s wonderful about you asking these questions is that`s why
Congress is doing an investigation.

MATTHEWS: So you`re investigating whether what you`re talking about is --
OK.

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: -- to make certain we get down to who did this, why did they do
it, and really where did this fiction come from?

MATTHEWS: I think it`s odd to have an investigation to find out if you
know what you`re talking about. That`s what you`re saying.
I, sir, I Congressman Turner am holding a investigation --

TURNER: You try to find out the truth.

MATTHEWS: By the way, watch this show at 7:00 and see yourself saying the
president did it. You said the president did it. You said the White House
did it. You keep saying --

TURNER: I have never, Chris.

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: Absolutely. Absolutely. There is no question that this
administration has told a fiction to this nation.

MATTHEWS: Oh, now, it`s the administration.

TURNER: While the president says it`s a sideshow, he`s never said it`s
troubling.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I know you got your points down. I want to ask you one last
time, in all fairness, Congressman. Do you know if the president had
anything to do with Susan Rice`s performance on "Meet the Press" that
Sunday? Anything? Do you know anything you can tell me about that?

TURNER: He appointed her and he certainly has done nothing since to
correct the fiction and to say there`s a problem in my administration that
someone would go on national TV and tell a fiction.

MATTHEWS: I understand everything you`re saying, by the way, except the
fact you`re bringing the president in, the White House in. You admitted
now you need to hold an investigation to find out if you know what you`re
talking about, which is amazing admission, sir.

TURNER: The president is responsible. It`s his administration. It`s his
appointees. It`s his administration. He`s the one who took out Benghazi,
took down Gadhafi without a post-Gadhafi plan.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Turner, you`re doing your job, but you`re not answering my
questions.

TURNER: Chris, I really appreciate it.

MATTHEWS: Thank you.

TURNER: And thank you for your comments on the IRS. You`re absolutely
right there.

MATTHEWS: We may agree on some things, but I`m still trying to get, and by
the way, if you --

TURNER: We do.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: -- if the president has any role in this, let me know, will you?
Thank you, Congressman Turner.

Our apologies to David Corn who`s sitting here idly with much to say.
Up next, how should President Obama navigate the Benghazi and IRS
controversy? We`re pure (ph) politics now, and what effect will they have
in 2014 and 2016?

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