MSNBC Meet the Press - Transcript

MSNBC Meet the Press - Transcript

Now, let's get a reaction from Charles Rangel, Democratic congressman from New York; Charles Grassley, Republican from Iowa.

What's your sense of what happened in Iraq?

SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY, (R-IA): Well, obviously, it's a continuing step to turn over to the Iraqi people their own destiny. It started on June the 30 last year and continuing this year through the election. And I think that there's a movement towards freedom that people are naturally born free, they want to be free, and you don't impose democracy. Democracy is natural. You can only impose dictatorship.

MR. RUSSERT: Good news?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL, (D-NY): Well, of course it's good news, but I guess by Republican standards that you could call it a good election. But I don't believe that the American people think that it was worth the lives of 1,200 Americans and 25,000 men and women in the armed services wounded, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dead. We talk about when do we leave. Well, in July of 1950, I went into combat in Korea with the 2nd Infantry Division, and guess what? The division is still there in Korea.

SEN. GRASSLEY: And surely one more step in a victory in a war on terrorism so we don't lose 3,000 New Yorkers again.

REP. RANGEL: I tell you this, if the president means what he says in his inaugural address, then we're going to have to go into Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, North Korea and China. You know, for Americans to get so hypocritical over democracies with countries that we trade with every day, it really amazes me. And I'm telling you, we went into Iraq not for elections. We went there to knock off Saddam Hussein, but the American people thought it was connected with 9/11, there was weapons of mass destruction, there were connections with al-Qaeda. It was all a fraud. Now, if this is the benefit that we get for going to war, we cannot afford to free people all over the world. We don't have that many lives to give up. Of course, if it was a draft, we wouldn't even be talking about freeing people all over the world. We're fighting this war with other people's kids.

SEN. GRASSLEY: The president did not declare war on January the 20 in his speech. What he declared is the natural goal of human beings all over the world and that's simply to be free. It's just natural.

REP. RANGEL: By American troops?

SEN. GRASSLEY: It's in man's basic nature going back to John Locke that people want to be free and they're born free.

REP. RANGEL: And they don't want their children to die for other people's freedom.

MR. RUSSERT: Let's turn homeward-to be continued in our next segment on Iraq and pre-emptive war in the Middle East. Let's turn to Social Security. The president has gone around the country campaigning on the issue of Social Security saying we have a problem, and he is suggesting part of the solution of that problem is private accounts, personal accounts. Senator Grassley, you said that "'Anybody who thinks borrowing money for the transition to personal accounts is going to solve the problem of the long-term solvency of Social Security doesn't understand the size of the problem,' said Senator Charles Grassley. ... Mr. Grassley said Congress would also have to put benefit reductions and tax increases on the table, in part to hold down the need for borrowing and in part of assure that any changes restore Social Security's long-term financial stability."

I've heard the president talk about private personal accounts. I have not heard him talk about benefit reductions or tax increases. Does he understand the true problem of Social Security?

SEN. GRASSLEY: The person who defines the issue will determine the outcome. That's an old adage. The president is a Professor Bush doing exactly what needs to be done. He's out there having a seminar with the American people on the problems of Social Security that everybody knows exists but the public has not concentrated on it. He's going to force the people of this country to concentrate on it. And I will find the solution, and all of those issues are on the table. The president knows that there's problems beyond, and he knows that personal accounts will not solve the problem. They're just a small part of the problem.

There are 100 moving parts. It's up to Chuck Grassley and Charlie Rangel in a bipartisan way to bring those parts together so that we guarantee our seniors a safe and secure retirement that they're entitled to, peace of mind that people who are retired today will not have their benefits cut. But for the present generation, the issue is that the New Deal program of the last 70 years was good for our grandparents and today, but do Grandma and Grandpa Grassley and everybody else want our children and grandchildren to have the same good deal we have? And if we don't, our grandchildren-if we don't make changes, our children and grandchildren are going have a raw deal.

MR. RUSSERT: So you're confident that if you put together legislation that includes private and personal accounts but also includes some benefit reductions and tax increases, for the next generation, the president would sign that bill?

SEN. GRASSLEY: The answer is yes. And not only that, but, listen, the alternative of doing nothing is also a benefit cut, I hope you'll remember. Because, for our children and grandchildren, even if they got 100 percent of benefits, they get a negative return. And even-and if we do nothing, they're going to get a 30 percent benefit cut. So doing nothing is not an alternative.

MR. RUSSERT: Congressman Rangel, you said that you "vowed to make Republicans back down from their current effort to distance 'privatization' from Social Security reform plans many of them embrace. 'We're going to wrap it around their neck until they come to the floor and say they didn't mean what they said. ...Every time they say "Social Security," we'll say "privatization."'"

Is that your plan?

REP. RANGEL: I don't remember saying that, but it sure sounds like me. First of all, this whole idea of correcting a very complex piece of legislation like Social Security screams out for a bipartisan solution. I could not agree with Chairman Grassley more. But there is no Democrat in the House of Representatives, or on my committee, that this president has reached out for. I'm telling you now, Social Security reform by the president is dead, and he killed it.

In 1978, a young fellow ran for Congress in Texas. His name was George Bush. And he said then that unless you privatize Social Security it will be busted in 10 years. He thought it then, and he thinks it now. This whole concept is to scare young people into believing that their benefits are not going to be there. When I met with the president and several Republicans and Democrats on his committee and the Ways and Means Committee, the president promised us that he will present to the Congress a plan to show how he was going to do it. This privatization plan just leads to a privatization and cuts the benefits and deprives the government of the promises that we've made to those people who pay into the system.

MR. RUSSERT: But, Congressman, December 1, 1999, this is Charlie Rangel. "I am one Democrat that truly believes that Democrats will not benefit by doing nothing on Social Security." If you oppose the president's plan, what is your plan? What would you do?

REP. RANGEL: What a question. What president's plan? The president has not presented us a plan. He talks about cutting benefits. He talks about taking away the guaranteed benefit and substitute it with the gamble on Wall Street. If the president would give us a plan, there's no question in my mind I could sit down with Charlie Grassley, some Republicans on the Ways and Means Committee, and say, "Mr. President, this is right and this is wrong."

But why should the Democrats, when there is no crisis, and I think the president is backing off of that, when the president is talking about cutting up the taxes by over a trillion dollars, not putting the budget figures for the war in there? We got tens of thousands of middle-income people that will get caught with a tax with the alternative minimum tax crushing them, and then all of a sudden, on his watch, he says that he wants to privatize Social Security, and we can't find Republicans embracing it. He doesn't buy the Republican ideas. We can't find Bill Thomas embracing them. We find House Republicans rejecting it. And you're asking me for the Democratic plan?

SEN. GRASSLEY: You quoted him, Congressman Rangel, January the 21, 1999. On that very same news conference, Charlie Rangel said that when the roof is leaking, you fix it on a sunny day. Right now we have a very sunny day for Social Security. It's the time to fix Social Security. We're three years away from the first baby boomers going into retirement. We're 13 years away from it having negative cash flow. Now is the time to do it. We've always waited until the last minute.

On December the 15th, 1977, in the last debate before the vote in 1977, Jim Wright said we will be fixing this Social Security system for the next 50 years. Six years later, we were up against it again. What Democrats like to do is wait until the last minute, until there's really a crisis out there, not the crisis that Clinton talked about in 1997, a crisis. And then you not only increase taxes, you also reduce benefits. By working on this right now, we've got the calm and peace to do it the right way and do it forever to make sure our children and grandchildren have the same good deal that I've got.

MR. RUSSERT: But, Senator, shouldn't there be truth in packaging, the suggestion being made around the country that if we have private or personal accounts, then that's going to really be a big step towards dealing with the long-term financial problems of Social Security?

SEN. GRASSLEY: OK.

MR. RUSSERT: Here's what a memo that was written by Peter Wehner, who's Bush's director of strategic initiatives. And he says that, "The suspicion that personal savings accounts may have little to do with making Social Security solvent over the long run was reinforced by his e-mail. If we duck our duty on benefit calculations, it can have serious short-term economic consequences. Here's why. If we borrow $1 - $2 trillion dollars to cover transition costs for personal savings accounts and make no changes to wage indexing," future payoffs to recipients, "we'll have borrowed trillions and will still confront more than $10 trillion in unfunded liabilities."

So when the president talks about private accounts, the second piece of that is what has to be done to pay for those? Now, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities has done an analysis of what the commission that reported to President Bush recommended in terms of wage indexing. And this is what they found, that under current law, in 2042, recipients would get a 36 percent replacement, money-their three highest years' income, a 36 percent replacement; 2075 it would be 36 percent. Under a proposal of so-called wage indexing, it would drop to 27 percent, and in 2075 to 20 percent, which would be a benefit cut of 26 percent and 46 percent. OK. Now, that's reality. That's part of what an honest presentation to the American people would include. Why haven't we heard that?

SEN. GRASSLEY: The president has a rare opportunity to get this issue out there. And in the next months, this is all going to be made transparent. There's no way that you cover this up. I don't want to cover it up. Everything has to be on the table. But here's what you got to look at. You have got to look at the fact that we do have a problem, and now's the time to do something about it. And there's 100 moving parts. What do you put together to get a solution? We can do that. But with the president not defining the issue with the American people first, nothing's going to get done. So he's doing that.

Now, moving beyond just benefit cuts: Look at the people that are suggesting tax increases. We have had 22 increases in the payroll tax since 1937. That has not solved the problem. Every year, we increase the taxes on wealthy people to pay more in the Social Security trust fund. That hasn't solved the problem. Congress has overpromised, and our children are not going to get what they pay into it. They're getting a negative return even if they get 100 percent of benefits. But if we do nothing, and they get 70 percent of benefits, then you can see why they're getting a very raw deal. We've got to be realistic about the future. People are living longer. There's less people paying into the system. But we can solve this problem and we've got time to solve it right now.

MR. RUSSERT: Charles Rangel, President Bill Clinton, a man that you supported very, very vigorously said this in 1998: "The looming fiscal crisis in Social Security ... if nothing is done, by 2029 there will be a deficit in the Social Security trust fund which will require ... either a huge tax increase in the payroll tax, or just about a 25 percent cut in Social Security benefits." That's Bill Clinton.

REP. RANGEL: And that's honesty. You...

MR. RUSSERT: OK, so let's talk on the table. The number of people on Social Security is going to double from 40 million to 80 million. Life expectancy is now going--78, 79, 80 years old.

REP. RANGEL: Exactly.

MR. RUSSERT: People on the program for 15 years. There used to be 16 workers per retiree. There's soon to be three workers-retiree, two workers-retiree. Knowing all that, hearing President Clinton, what should we do? Should we raise the cap on the payroll tax? Should we have a means testing for affluent Americans? Should we have an indexing of the cost of living or indexing of benefits, wages, price? What should we do?

REP. RANGEL: Well, first of all, let me go back to the statement that Senator Grassley accurately quoted that I said, and that is during sunny days is when you repair the roof. Those were the sunny days. If the senator thinks that we're living through sunny economic days now, I hate to see what he would call a rainstorm. We went from a $5 trillion expected surplus and now we're in $4 trillion deficit. If there was an emergency, of course we'd join in and resolve it.

The president has said that those over 55 will not receive any benefit decreases. What is he saying? That you can depend on the fact if you're under 55 you're going to get a benefit decrease. In answer to your question what we should be doing, since there will not be an emergency for 50 years, unless you say our bonds have no full faith and credit, which I don't think we're saying, you need bipartisan support. And I know the senator agrees with that. Now, I would challenge him as to what bipartisan support has the president put out there for us to work together? He's out there screaming that privatization's going to do it. The truth is privatization through private accounts is lose, lose, lose.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Grassley said, Congressman Rangel, that a package of some form of personal private accounts plus benefits cuts plus tax increases is something the president would sign. Is that something you can embrace?

REP. RANGEL: I haven't heard the president say anything except the program is going bust and that young people are not going to receive their benefits and that he's going to cut their benefits under 55 but not over 55. The senator told me-now if he wants to-I mean, the president told me-if he wants to contradict the president, I won't-"Hold your fire, don't do anything, wait until I present a bill to the Congress and then we'll sit down." Now, Bill Thomas in the House and the senator in the Senate are saying, "We don't want any bill. Let us handle it." Well, they can grab that third rail, I'm not thinking about doing it unless it's done with Democrats and Republicans working together with the president.

SEN. GRASSLEY: The president has said, on television, that he will sit down and talk to anybody, he invites anybody, a bipartisan group to the table, and he will consider any alternative.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator, would you consider something that's been described as Social Security plus? Rather than have private and personal accounts that are funded by the payroll tax, the payroll tax would continue in its entirety to be used for Social Security but Americans could have an additional amount of money set aside into a personal or private account. Would you support something like that, as a compromise?

SEN. GRASSLEY: Everything's on the table as far as I'm concerned. I've said it once. I'll say it twice and I'm going to say it until I put a bill before the United States Senate. And there are bipartisan groups, people working together, to consider all these things right now. Charlie may not want to admit it, but there's some Democrats coming to the table. But what you're proposing...

REP. RANGEL: Not in the House.

SEN. GRASSLEY: What you're proposing is that we put an additional tax on low-income people or else low-income people aren't going to have their personal accounts. The idea is to give low-income people that are already paying plenty of tax an opportunity to take two points of their Social Security and have a personal account and have it started. And I would even supplement it a little bit so that they really have equity in the system. Why? Because it's their money, they earned it. They ought to have some say about it. I think they trust Wall Street more than they trust Washington, D.C. And I think it's a case of, as Jim Wright said on December the 15th, 1977, we've got to make sure that there isn't generational warfare. We've got to have equity in the system, and this will give that equity so that they feel a part of it and they'll know that they're a part of it and they'll want to preserve this part of the social fabric of our American society.

MR. RUSSERT: Will there be Social Security reform this year?

SEN. GRASSLEY: Of course there will be, because the president is defining this issue. People that define the issue determine the outcome and the outcome is now as the sun's shining to make sure that we get this job done while we...

MR. RUSSERT: Will it be a bipartisan solution?

SEN. GRASSLEY: That's the only way can I get it to the United States Senate.
REP. RANGEL: It's not coming to the-the president's not going to come up with a bill. And I think what the senator is saying that the Wall Street is far more safe than government bonds. I was raised: Don't take the risk, put it in government bonds. Now, we're saying we should take it out of government bonds and put it here.

The reason privatization doesn't work is as soon as they move from the wage index, as you were talking about earlier, your benefits are reduced by 40 to 50 percent. If you're successful in the market, then they reduce your benefits by the increase in the market. If you want to have a separate account, like we're supposed to have in the thrift account, you don't take anything away from the Social Security Trust Fund, you don't reduce the benefits of the people, you still have disability insurance and survivor benefits. Put me in. I hope the senator will join me.

SEN. GRASSLEY: But the reason they trust Wall Street is because it's their own money and they're determining the destiny of the own money and they don't trust political leaders in Washington who have screwed up the Social Security system so many times that you get the bill passed in 1977 that's supposed to solve the problem for the next 50 years, and we're-in 1984, we're back solving it again, and here we are right now talking about the need for an additional solution. We ought to fix it once and for all, Charlie, and we've got that opportunity now. We need to seize the opportunity. Thank God the president's leading the debate, and we'll get it done.

REP. RANGEL: Doesn't the government select the stocks that can be invested with the president's program? And you can't pull your money out as you can with the thrift plan.

SEN. GRASSLEY: It'll be exactly the same way...

REP. RANGEL: It would not be.

SEN. GRASSLEY: ...that it is for the thrift plan.

REP. RANGEL: We can take withdrawals out of our thrift. You can't do it then. You take your money out...

SEN. GRASSLEY: Well, you can't take your money out of Social Security now unless you retire.

REP. RANGEL: But you're talking about being in charge of your own destiny.

SEN. GRASSLEY: Oh, you are in charge of it. You get a chance...

REP. RANGEL: With the thrift account, you bet your life I am.

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