MSNBC Hardball with Chris Matthews

Hardball With Chris Matthews - Transcript

How well are we developing our security force over there, our Iraqi security force?

REP. JOHN THUNE ®, SOUTH DAKOTA: One of the things we did while we were there, Chris, was visit with General Dave Petraeus, who is in charge of training the Iraqi security forces. And they're very upbeat about how things are going. The election has generated a lot of intensity, a lot of people who want to join the forces.

The challenge I think is developing the command structure, building the leadership capacity to lead those troops. But in terms of the numbers, the training, the equipping, all that's going on, both in the Army, the National Guard, and the police force over there. They feel very confident that they're making significant progress toward getting the Iraqis trained to defend themselves.

MATTHEWS: How has the election affected things?

THUNE: Well, it was remarkable to see the exuberance of the Iraqi people. We talked with a number of Iraqi voters, all of
whom risked their lives in many cases going out to vote.

And they are extremely just thrilled at the opportunity to vote. And, in fact, it is a great tribute to the power of freedom. But I think what that has done is generated a momentum for the effort there that is taking a lot of the wind out of the sail of the insurgents. Now, as you just mentioned, they're still going about trying to recapture that momentum by returning to the violence.

But I think it is going to be increasingly difficult for them to sustain that in light of the Iraqi people's thirst for freedom. They really, really are thirsty and hungry for an opportunity to have a democracy and to be free.

MATTHEWS: You know, Senator, that, at home, here in American politics, passion matters most. If you really care, you'll get
out and vote.

What happens if we have a country in Iraq that is maybe 80 percent, almost 90 percent pro-government? They like elections. They believe in democracy and majority-rule. But if 10 or 15 percent of the people, mainly the Sunnis don't, and they're willing to fight and give their lives in a rebellion, how do you stamp it out with the regular nonpassionate people against the crazed people?

THUNE: I think that the Sunni minority-there's a majority of the Sunni minority I think who want to see this democracy work. But there clearly are the insurgents who comprise a part of that group are becoming increasingly marginalized I think in this process, although they still-the violence and the threats and the terrorism continues.

But if this new government-and it looks like it's going to be a Shiite alliance ticket majority, absolute majority, effectively reaches out to the Kurds and the Sunni minorities and incorporates and involves them in forming the government, in ratifying a constitution, I think we can stamp out or at least hopefully stamp out some of the insurgent elements there.

But right now, the challenge I think is getting the Iraqi security forces trained. It is getting a government stood up there that is inclusive, that incorporates and includes these other minority groups and parties. And if we can do that, things look hopeful there. That is not to say there's not a lot of heavy lifting. There's going to be turbulent times ahead.
But I think there's a lot of optimism, a lot of hope that we're making progress.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about this, Senator. Iran has a Shiite majority. It's run by its mullahs, its clerisy. If Iraq gets the same form of government led by the mullahs, how do we know they won't export terrorism the way that Iran does through Hezbollah or some organization like that?

THUNE: Well, I think that's a-that's something we're going to have to monitor closely. We met with some of the leaders of the Shia alliance ticket, the people who are going to be in the majority and raised questions question about the relationship with Iran and whether or not they were going to be engaged.
And they gave us a lot of assurances that they're going to work within Iraq with the minority groups to form a government in Iraq.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

THUNE: To have a democracy there. And they understand the concerns that have been expressed about the elements in Iran that are unfavorable toward the U.S.
So I think that's a concern. It' something we're going to have to monitor closely.

(CROSSTALK)

THUNE: But, again, this is a process which is working and I think right now working effectively.

MATTHEWS: Senator, I have got-only have time for one last question.
Judy Miller of "The New York Times" reported to us last week the United States government is reaching out to Ahmad Chalabi, who the government apparently feels will be a big part of the new government over there. Did you meet with him? Did you hear anything about U.S. efforts to try to connect up with Chalabi, a man who has had some difficulties with the West?

THUNE: Well, we did not meet with him. But we did-there were some discussions about that. And I suspect that he may have some involvement or presence in this new government.
But, as you mentioned, there's a storied history and a storied past there. But we're hopeful, I guess, again, that this process as it moves forward will be an inclusive government and, if the effort is made the reach out to all the groups in Iraq, that this can be a successful effort.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you very much, Senator John Thune of South Dakota.

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