MSNBC "The Ed Show" - Transcript - Defense Policy in Iraq and Afghanistan

Interview

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DYSON: Director Michael Moore was booed off the stage of the Academy
Award for denouncing the invasion of Iraq.

So much for these bleeding heart liberals in Hollywood. Let us not
forget the response from around the globe. Just as many protests and
demonstrations were held in countries throughout Europe and Asia, U.N.

Secretary General Kofi Annan said the war was illegal. Nelson Mandela
called it a threat to world peace.

From a faith`s perspective, Pope John Paul II said the war would not
solve the problems of man.

The Reverend Jesse Jackson called on peaceful people everywhere to
march until the war was over. And we remember 10 years ago, let us admire
and respect the opposition of a former president, as well as the words of a
dissent from a future president, it was Illinois State Senator Barack Obama
who said in 2002, "I don`t oppose all wars. What I am opposed to is a dumb
war."

This is a war that cost the lives of anywhere from 110,000 to 1
million civilians, and nearly 5,000 U.S. and international military
members. Today is not a day to cheer for success. But it is a day to
remember those who fought hard to avoid the war`s tragic consequences.
Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think.
Tonight`s question: will the architects of the Iraqi war ever admit
they made a mistake? Text A for yes, text B for no to 67622, or go to our
blog at Ed.MSNBC.com. I`ll bring you the results later in the snow.
I`m joined now by Congresswoman Diana DeGette, I`m sorry --

REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: It`s DeGette.

DYSON: Diana DeGette of Colorado. Excuse me, Congresswoman. I`m
getting your name mixed up here.

DEGETTE: That`s OK.

DYSON: I`m so hyped to get to this point.

Congresswoman, you were one of 133 members of the House to vote
against this war. Take us back to that day and tell us what was going
through your mind?

DEGETTE: Well, you know, for me, I`m elected to Congress and I take
every vote seriously, but the vote to invade a sovereign nation, put our
fighting Americans at risk and go into this country, it has to be taken
very seriously. And I`ve had several of these votes, of course.

But what I look at is, is this country a threat to our national
security? We had the classified briefings with Don Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld
and Cheney and the whole group. And they kept saying we have the weapons
of mass destruction.

There was a pesky little group of us and we kept saying, show us the
evidence. Show us the evidence. They say, don`t worry, we have the
evidence.

And, you know, I`m not going to vote to send our fighting men and
women into another country and waste all those lives and all those billions
of dollars just based on frankly on Dick Cheney`s assurance. And so, I
voted no, as did some of my colleagues.

It was a tough vote at that time, because, of course, people did not
believe that the White House would lie to them, and so they believed that
Iraq had these weapons, but they didn`t and, frankly, there was never proof
they did.

DYSON: Now, was it the fact there was no proof that they ever did
that led to your vote? Were you contentiously objecting to the rush to
judgment without any empirical proof?

DEGETTE: Right. I mean, you know, al Qaeda was the ones that invaded
our sovereignty, that killed our citizens that took down the World Trade
Center on that terrible day, and I was convinced we had the evidence that
Afghanistan and the Taliban were hiding al Qaeda. I had no trouble voting
to go into Afghanistan.

But when the White House came to us with Iraq, they said, you know,
you just have to trust us. I said, you know what? I`m a member of
Congress. We have to take this vote very seriously and I`m not going vote
to go into this sovereign nation and put our men and women at risk, as well
as the civilians there, as well as our reputation in the world, not to
mention the fact that we`re in the financial problems we`re in this country
right now because we fought that war and the other war off budget for 10
years.

DYSON: Sure.

DEGETTE: So, those were all things that went through our minds and
ultimately, an act to go to war is an act of conscience. And I think
members of Congress have to take that the most seriously of any vote they
make and there wasn`t the evidence. And that`s why I voted no.

DYSON: Well, given the violent downpour of opposition to your
dissent, you take a lot of heat. Did it ever make you question your
judgment? I mean, in the wee hours of the morning, so to speak, did you
ever say, man, maybe I should have gone along? Did you ever question
yourself?

DEGETTE: Well, I never had a moment of regret. And as, of course,
the troops marched towards Baghdad and they found no chemical weapons, no
nuclear weapons, no weapons of mass destructions, and it became really
clear those weapons did not exist. Of course, I became more and more
comfortable in my belief.

That even if it was the most unpopular that I took, it was the right
thing to do. It was a vote of conscience. And I think probably, the other
people in Congress who voted that way, you know, we looked at the evidence,
the evidence wasn`t there and we weren`t going to make that vote, even if
it costs us our elections.

And frankly, I was just telling a colleague earlier today, I would say
it`s in the top five votes that I`ve taken in my 17 years in Congress.

DYSON: Right.

Well, a new report from Brown University says the total cost of the
war in Iraq, so far, has been $2.2 trillion. The cost could double or even
triple when you take interest payments into account.

Why is it that your Republican colleagues don`t ever talk about this
when they talk about our debt? They never mention this tremendous part of
that debt.

DEGETTE: Well, you know, Michael, one thing that was so frustrating
to a lot of Democrats who consider ourselves to be fiscally responsible is,
of course, you had the Bush tax cuts. Then right after, you had the
attacks on September 11th and you had the war on Afghanistan, which I
supported and almost all of the rest of the members of Congress did,
because those were the people that attacked us.
But then, you had the war in Iraq and both Afghanistan and Iraq were
fought as quote emergencies, which means they weren`t included in the
annual budgets. And all of the deficits that we saw racked up over those
years were around those wars. So, now, when they`re talking about a budget
that cuts student loan programs for G.I. members, people coming back from
Iraq and Afghanistan now, they`re not getting their student loans, because
this was all fought off budget.

I think that`s political malpractice on the part of the Republican
Party. They should have budgeted for this.

DYSON: Well, from a congressional physician of the soul like
Congresswoman Diana DeGette, thank you so very much.
Now, let`s turn --

DEGETTE: So good to be with you.

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