NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript

Interview

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DAVID GREGORY:
We are back now with our political roundtable. Joining me, senior political reporter for Politico, Jonathan Martin is here. NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent, Andrea Mitchell, former Democratic Governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson, and the chair of the House Oversight and Government Reform Contaminated, Congressman Darrell Issa. Welcome to all of you.

Chairman Issa, I want to start with you. The standoff between your committee and you personally with the attorney general and now the White House, over executive privilege. Bottom line, is there an agreement here that you can reach? Or are you going to a full House contempt vote?

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Well, there is a standoff, but it's not something we aim to have. We'd like to get the documents. They're very specific documents in many cases where we've been give under-oath testimony about e-mails or memos or correspondence. And we'd like to have those. They don't involve executive privilege. It's pretty clear they're communications about post-February fourth cover-up by the Justice Department.

You know, there was ten months in which they said there were no gun walking until they said, "Oh, yes there was," and they retracted the February fourth letter to Senator Grassley. That's what we'd like to have. If we can have those documents, we can postpone--

DAVID GREGORY:
All right--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
--or cancel the contempt.

DAVID GREGORY:
Let's walk back. The underlying problem here is a policy where federal agents allowed gun walking. So they didn't arrest straw purchasers of illegal guns, they let them to back into Mexico. Ultimately, those guns got into circulation, were used to kill two federal agents. That was the underlying problem. That program, which started under the previous administration, has gone away. The documents--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
No. No, it didn't.

DAVID GREGORY:
It didn't go away.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
There was something under the previous administration, a couple of programs, wide receiver was one that they mention a lot, started and stopped, cancelled and found to be flawed, under the Bush era, never got to President Bush or the attorney general.

DAVID GREGORY:
Because they're indictments

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
They were indictments that the U.S. attorney, the Republican U.S. Attorney said, "We can't go forward, this is too flawed a tactic." It was shut down. Lanny Breuer, member--

DAVID GREGORY:
Head of the criminal division.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Right, head of criminal division, began those prosecutions over. And at the same time, fast and furious, began--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
There really was a recognition by the previous administration that this was the wrong thing to do, and it was shut down. It was started back up in this administration. At this point, what we want to do is make sure that no administration starts or stops it again.

DAVID GREGORY:
But Congressman, the documents you're after are not about the program itself, they're about how the Justice Department responded to you, what they were saying about you and your committee and the attorney general's testimony. If you got everything you wanted, what do you think it would prove?

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
You know, Brian Terry's mother wants the truth.

DAVID GREGORY:
One of the agents killed.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Both the ranking member, Mr. Cummings, and myself promised to get the truth. We got a lie, we got a cover-up. But more importantly, five different times, we had the-- the key people involved in front of-- a deposition, private deposition with Republican and Democratic consuls, and the administration's handlers, lawyers, said, "Don't answer, don't answer, don't answer."

We need answers. We can't have answers when people take the fifth. We can't have answers when the Justice Department instructs witnesses not to answer questions. And more importantly, I think the American people understand if the administration lies, the people who tell untruths in the administration, and then cover it up for ten months, have to be held accountable. That's not executive privilege. You don't have the privilege to lie to the American people.

DAVID GREGORY:
What would you be able to prove? I mean what the White House is saying is this is a fishing expedition, it's to score political points, it's all theater. What can you prove if you get e5tg you want?

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Well first of all, what we know is, on a couple of occasions, specific testimony about memos and e-mails that were sent were looking for those. Those are in our discovery. What we really want to know is why did it take ten months, and what were they covering up? Because from this ten months, we go backwards to find out the important thing.

Who at Justice up and down the chain authorized this and allowed it to continue? Remember, Brian Terry was killed 18 months ago. We're not just talking about February fourth, we're talking about the three months after he was killed, and the months leading up to it. The investigation has to, one, hold people responsible, two, make sure it doesn't happen again. And the second part is what we're all about.

DAVID GREGORY:
Governor, do you think the White House ought to try to find some accommodation here?

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
I think both sides need to find an accommodation. But with all during respect to the Congressman, this strikes me as political. The administration has provided 7,600 documents. There's been 11 Congressional hearings. People want the Congress to deal with jobs. They want them to deal with the one million construction jobs that are going to expire unless they act. They're going to need to deal with close to seven million student loans that are going to go up unless the Congress acts.

I think the attorney general has done a very good job. I mean I commend him for what he's done on challenging the Arizona immigration law, on what he's done with a number of other inquiries, the voting rights suppression that is happening around the country. I think there's a little bit of political payback.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
--the Congressman.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
But Bill, you know, you--

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
But--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
--Nixon got us opened up China. He created the E.P.A. and O.S.H.A.. There were a lot of good things that happened. In this case, the attorney general has given 80,000 documents to the inspector general. And of the 7,600 documents that we received, some of them we didn't ask for, they're not pertinent. And many of them are completely redacted, completely black pages.

DAVID GREGORY:
All right. But so a lot of it--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
So let's understand, we want answers to specific questions.

DAVID GREGORY:
All right, I want to get in here because I want to talk about the politics of this, as well. Jonathan, there is tension here among Republicans.

JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right.

DAVID GREGORY:
The chairman wants to move forward. There's a lot of other Republicans who say, "Hey, this is not the focus here we want in an election year."

JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right. If you get truths here, and I think to the House GOP leadership, they would say they'd rather talk about jobs every single day from now until election day. But the fact is, in the House, there is a strong block of conservatives that have prompted Speaker Boehner to sort of bend here. And so he is having to pursue this issue.

Look, I don't think they want to do this. I don't think Governor Romney certainly wants to pursue this. They want to focus entirely on jobs and the economy, on President Obama, from now until election day. But it's a testament to the chairman and the conservative strength in the House GOP that this is happening.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
But Jonathan, you know, the Tuesday group, the most moderate Republicans, have come up to me time and time again about this. And it's not a fight we want. It's not what we want to be on. Yes, we want to be jobs and the economy. The Data Act passed unanimously out of the House, and it's died in the Senate, that would bring greater transparency and accountability and save money. We have those issues we're working on.

But, you know, some fights you pick? This wasn't one. Some fights come to you, and you have to do what you have to do. In this case, you'll have all the Republicans, moderate and conservatives, saying, "We don't want to do this, but we will do it." And you'll have a lot of Democrats--

DAVID GREGORY:
And Andrea--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
--voting with them.

DAVID GREGORY:
Andrea Mitchell, where are we on this?

ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, like you've heard from the chairman here, from Chairman Issa, is that Nixon did some things that were good. I mean that is the analogy. And by invoking executive privilege, the White House has now brought into the sort of symbolic confrontation, this constitutional confrontation, that the White House does not initially want. But they think that they can win because, as Governor Richardson said, they think the people care more about the economy.

It is a distraction. It is politics at large in Washington, according to most people. But I think that this thing is going to play out there, going to have this vote on the House floor. And the irony is, of course, that it will be up to the Justice Department whether or not to prosecute. This is going to go to the courts. I think that Chairman Issa would agree with that. It's going to go to the courts, and you're not going to have the resolution before the election.

DAVID GREGORY:
All right, we have about three minutes left. And now Chairman, I'm going to ask you to take off the newsmaker hat, put on the analyst hat. Because I want to react a little bit to Senator Rubio and the immigration politics of this week. Governor Richardson, it was striking to me that you have both Senator Rubio, but also, Mitt Romney really straddling this issue of immigration, not answering the hard questions that a lot of people want to address, saying, "Well, we're going to get to a comprehensive solution, something that has eluded presidents, from Obama to President Bush, as well."

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
Well, Senator Rubio, very articulate. The first time I've ever met him. However, he has not taken a definitive position on-- he's against The Dream Act, which allows immigrant kids to go in the military, college--

DAVID GREGORY:
And get citizenship.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
--and get that break.

DAVID GREGORY:
Yeah.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
Get citizenship. He's against comprehensive immigration that, as you asked him, the 12 million immigrants that are here, what happens to them under the Obama plan, under create conditions? The president has pushed for comprehensive immigration. He's pushed for a Dream Act. It's been Republican filibusters, Republican opposition. The president has appointed hundreds of nominees in important positions.

And then lastly, the President's done a good job in creating jobs for Hispanic. What you have now is an increase, almost in two million Hispanic jobs in the last 27 months. There's been also an increase, through the payroll tax cut, close to 234 million Hispanics got a tax cut. His initiatives towards education, high-tech jobs.

Another thing that bothers me in this debate, most think that Hispanic immigration issues are really landscaping. Those are honorable jobs. But what we're talking about is future technologists. We're talking about future doctors, business leaders.

DAVID GREGORY:
Right.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
That's the new emerging--

DAVID GREGORY:
All right, but--

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
--Latino community.

DAVID GREGORY:
Jonathan first, and then Andrea, in terms of how Senator Rubio is positioning himself. What struck you about today?

JONATHAN MARTIN:
Oh, how cautious he is on this issue, just like Governor Romney is. They don't want to talk about what the elephant in the room is, and that is what do you do with the 12 million illegal immigrants who are here in the country right now? Do they have to go back to their countries first before they get some degree of amnesty?

Look, Governor Romney has said all week that he's going to propose a long term solution. That's kind of his preferred choice of words, "a long term solution." But what does that mean? Does that mean mass deportations or some form of conditional amnesty? We don't know because they won't say. And why won't they say? Well, because, on their right flank, they're facing heat from border hawks--

DAVID GREGORY:
Right.

JONATHAN MARTIN:
--in their own part.

DAVID GREGORY:
But you're a California Republican--

JONATHAN MARTIN:
--Hispanics whose vote they need.

DAVID GREGORY:
Can any illegal immigrant become legal without first leaving the country?

JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes. But understand that, since 1986, when Ronald Reagan thought he fixed this on a bipartisan basis, granted amnesty, put in new, tougher rules to keep it from happening again, the system has failed. Since the '90s, in California, we have seen it fail, fail, fail.

Republicans have an obligation to deal with 12 million people that are here in a broken system, a system that was, in fact, broken, and that's part of why they're here. At the same time, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. We have to make sure that, whatever the comprehensive reform is, that it has real teeth and can be verified.

DAVID GREGORY:
Andrea?

JONATHAN MARTIN:
We can't go through this again.

DAVID GREGORY:
Andrea?

ANDREA MITCHELL:
The whole point, though, is that the reason why Mitt Romney and Marco Rubio are being so ambiguous about it is because, as Jonathan just pointed out, there are pitfalls on all sides.

DAVID GREGORY:
Right.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
There are no easy answers. Look, two days before the president announced his temporary solutions, temporary fix, Marco Rubio was telling a group of us reporters how he was going to propose a Dream Act modification. But the president (UNINTEL) run around him. And the fact is that he had never discussed personally that with Mitt Romney.

They wanted that deniability built in because they didn't not want to pin the candidate down on it, and Marco Rubio doesn't want to be pinned down on it. And the fact is that now the president has preempted it and you can't even introduce his own legislation.

DAVID GREGORY:
All right, let me just get a break in here.

DAVID GREGORY:
We're back now with more from our roundtable. All the talk about Marco Rubio this week has certainly intensified the speculation about who Mitt Romney will choose as his running mate, and why, after all, this decision matters.

DAVID GREGORY:
So, there it is. Discuss. Governor Richardson, you've been in this position before. You know, think of it from Mitt Romney's position. What is the message he wants to send?

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
Well, I think he is so behind with Latino voters that, if I were advising him, which he won't take that advice, (LAUGHTER) is that he go with Rubio. Because Rubio will help him in Florida. And you then have a chance in some of those states like Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, with a high proportion of Latino voters.

I don't think it's going to be enough, even if he picks Rubio, because the president has a very good record with Hispanic voters. But I think if he goes with some of the traditional choices that are out there, and I know many of them, they're good candidates, the opportunity with this sleeping giant of a Hispanic community that is just exploding is not going to be there. And Rubio's an attractive guy. If he picks him, I don't think he can still win those states. But--

ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, what about the first "do no harm" theory?

DAVID GREGORY:
Oh yeah.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
Which is someone who has been around the track a few times. I wonder what Issa thinks about this. What about--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
I want to be on the selection committee. That seems to be the way you do it.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
Assuming that you're not on the list and not being vetted, (LAUGHTER) because we haven't heard about you in that context. What about Tim Pawlenty? What about Rob Portman, who would seem to be the frontrunners if you're going to choose a safe candidate--

MALE VOICE:
Right.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
--who is not going to hurt the--

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
2008, more than ever, tells us be ready to be president on day one, and make sure there's no question you're ready to be president on day one. And that favors governors, it favors people who have been on the scene longer.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
So--

DAVID GREGORY:
You know Jonathan, I did a panel discussion with Steve Schmidt, who of course ran McCain's campaign.

JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right.

DAVID GREGORY:
And he said, "We won't be the last campaign to make a VP choice for politically expedient reasons. But we'll be the last campaign to do it for a while."

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
That's right, exactly.

DAVID GREGORY:
And that is the--

JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, I think the Congressman's case is what the Romney folks are looking at. And that is who can step into the job if the president is incapable of doing it? And that's also in Governor Romney's D.N.A..

DAVID GREGORY:
Right.

JONATHAN MARTIN:
He has somebody who's prudent and cautious. He's a management consultant, right? So I think if he is still in the game, and it looks like he's going to be come August, he's going to make a sort of safe, traditional pick. Talking about folks like Tim Pawlenty, like Rob Portman, perhaps Paul Ryan. But I'll tell you, I was talking with some sources at the Utah event this weekend. The biggest buzz out there was for Condi Rice.

DAVID GREGORY:
Interesting.

JONATHAN MARTIN:
She's not going to be--

ANDREA MITCHELL:
Oh, she made a great speech at lunch.

JONATHAN MARTIN:
She's not going to be the pick for a variety of reasons. But it just goes to show, at least among donors and GOP elites, that there's still a sort of search for that star power that obviously something like that has.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
But in the end, it's who can bring you the most votes, who can bring you a state that you don't have.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
Well, but that's the old wisdom.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
That really is the old wisdom. But it's still--

REP. DARREL ISSA:
No, Bill, I think it's the-- and it's a great reason to say Marco Rubio, but it's not a great reason to pick a president, a vice president. The vice president should be picked based on "do no harm" and based on job one being "you can take over the presidency."

JONATHAN MARTIN:
But this is a lot about Marco Rubio and the unique role he has in American politics that Governor Romney would sort of spurn his own fight club rules, which is you don't talk about fight club. In a matter of hours he would say, "Yes, he, in fact, is being vetted that."

JONATHAN MARTIN:
That's a remarkable testament to Rubio's place in American politics.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
But it was sort of a courtesy, that statement.

MALE VOICE:
right.

MALE VOICE:
Right.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
Because it didn't seem if--

DAVID GREGORY:
We don't know if it's true or not.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
We don't know if it's true.

JONATHAN MARTIN:
Right.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
But it seems like he--

JONATHAN MARTIN:
But the fact that he said it, though.

DAVID GREGORY:
Right. And well, why wouldn't they look at him?

DAVID GREGORY:
I mean, you know, you'd be crazy not to.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
--going to the Hispanic community.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
This needs to be cast very broad. There's no question you need to be prepared. Because ultimately, your number one choice could falter at the end. The late Jack Kemp was once the absolutely going to be the VP, and at the end, he wasn't.

DAVID GREGORY:
Right.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
And I think you have to look, and you have to realize that this is a unique position where you go from being president and chairman of the board and CEO and chief operating officer, and if you're not there, the vice president, who has a nondescript job, has to come in and do all of it.

DAVID GREGORY:
So I have a question about Paul Ryan. Paul Ryan's chairman of budget committee. You know, I mean like Marco Rubio, guys are the same age, 41 years old, and a big future ahead of him in the Republican Party. But the question, chairman, is whether a guy like Paul Ryan is a little too incendiary. Would the left be able to really go to work on him because of his views about Medicare, because of his budget? Do you think Romney looks at that and says, "Boy, he's attractive, he doubles down on my message, but he'd just be too much of a lightening rod?"

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Well, I hope that Governor Romney looks at what Paul Ryan and others have said and not what the political left has said about them. That's part of the consideration.

DAVID GREGORY:
Right.

DAVID GREGORY:
--if he's embraced a lot of what he says.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Right, exactly. If you look at Paul Ryan, he's the person that took on the president in that famous Republican gathering where the president said, "You guys have no ideas." And he said, "Well, wait a second. I gave you this. What about this?" And the president had to back down and say, "Well yes, those are some very good budget ideas."

This is a person of substance that I serve with in the House, I'm very proud to serve with, who has a lot of great ideas. If he's not the vice president, he still is one of the people on the short list for key cabinet positions.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
Yeah.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
And OMB, and these kinds of positions. And that's one of the reasons you cast the net is you're looking at people, like Bill Richardson, who might or might not be the VP, but also, might or might not be--

DAVID GREGORY:
I don't think that Romney's--

DAVID GREGORY:
--you, Bill.

DAVID GREGORY:
I just don't see that.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
He's got to have one Democrat in the administration. (LAUGHTER)

DAVID GREGORY:
Can you do transportation, governor?

ANDREA MITCHELL:
--you will not serve under Romney.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
In the end, this election's going to be so close. I think the president wins it very narrowly in those southwest states. You know, all this "do no harm", "who's going to be the best VP, ready to be president," you know, I'd love that. That's a civics class statement. But in the end is, "How can I win and eek out a narrow victory?" And I think Governor Romney is going to have to find a game changer.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
So who's Obama going to pick for vice president, then, to do that?

DAVID GREGORY:
Well, he's got a good one. He's got the vice president--

DAVID GREGORY:
They already made the lawn signs. They can't change that now.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
And Biden is strong.

DAVID GREGORY:
Right.

FMR. GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
He's strong in Pennsylvania, he's strong with the middle class voters.

DAVID GREGORY:
All right. Let me take another break here.

DAVID GREGORY:
Final moments with our roundtable. I wish we had a second hour today, there's so much news. We want to go round the table quickly on some other big news this week in politics. First up, of course, is what's coming down the pike this week. The Supreme Court and health care. Here was talking points memo, the blog this morning. And here's a headline: "Obama Care Supporters at Odds Over Post-Supreme Court Strategy." Andrea, high stake stuff this week. It's going to have a big impact in the race.

ANDREA MITCHELL:
It's huge. And, you know, either way, if the mandate is thrown out by the Supreme Court this week, the left and liberal supporters of the president say that they're going to make it a huge issue. But any way you look at it, it is a huge defeat for this administration. This is the signature policy of this president.

DAVID GREGORY:
0Let's review. They can uphold, they can strike down. They could strike down the individual mandate, or they could strike that down plus--

ANDREA MITCHELL:
Right.

DAVID GREGORY:
--that severability argument where they also strike down things like guaranteeing that insurance companies have to cover people with preexisting conditions. This is what Speaker Boehner said this week in a memo to Republicans about what happens when the Supreme Court acts. He said, "No one knows what the court will decide. But if the court strikes down all or part of the President's health care law, there'll be no spiking of the ball. Republicans are focused on the economy. We will not celebrate at a time when millions of our fellow Americans remain out of work." But Congressman, there's no question that Republicans will make this a part of the fall choice.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Well, if they strike down the entire bill, then some of the things that we all agreed on should be dealt with will be first and foremost.

DAVID GREGORY:
Preexisting conditions.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Preexisting conditions.

DAVID GREGORY:
Keeping young people up on their parents until 26.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
Well, an age to be determined.

DAVID GREGORY:
Okay.

REP. DARRELL ISSA:
And a status to be determined. But absolutely. There would be a need, a bipartisan need, for a group of us, particularly those on Ways and Means, to get together and say, "Okay, what is it we can cobble together from what we do agree on with our Democratic colleagues, and put back in?" Because all along, we've said real problems, this isn't the solution. If this goes away, we still have to start dealing with the problem

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