CNN Crossfire - Transcript

CNN

SHOW: CNN CROSSFIRE 4:30 PM EST

October 13, 2004 Wednesday

HEADLINE: Presidential Showdown in Arizona

BYLINE: J.D. Hayworth, Paul Begala, Wolf Blitzer

GUESTS: Gary Ross, Jeff Flake, Gregory Meeks

BODY:

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REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D), NEW YORK: Because of the overwhelming number of times that he's voted to reduce taxes. He's the first to want to balance the budget to make sure that the government does not spend more than it's taking in.

And he will, you know, he broke with his party to do that. And he will continue to do that. What he says is that the 2 percent of Americans, those that make-those that have-we're going to make sure that they go back to their time, but middle-class and lower-and poor people, they will not have to pay more taxes...

HAYWORTH: Oh, but he and his spouse earned $5.6 million last year and only paid a 12 percent tax rate. I guess some folks are more equal than others.

BEGALA: That's because of the tax rate that J.D. and Jeff Flake both

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: He went out and took advantage of that. And that's very interesting.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Bush has been very good to the very rich.

HAYWORTH: No, no, he used his lawyers to find the loopholes. It's very curious to see what happens, the kind of double-talk we get, the reason why we're going to victorious...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Congressman Flake, let me ask you about a different millionaire. That is John Snow. He's the president's secretary of the treasury. He said a curious thing. He said that the 820,000 Americans who lost their jobs under George W. Bush, that that's just a myth.

Now, do you want to look in the camera and tell those families, those moms and dads who can't put food on the table for their children, that their pain is just a myth? Or do you actually live in the real world and deal with reality and understand that we're losing jobs in America under George Bush?

FLAKE: What I'll say is that the job picture is improving. The economy is improving. And a big driver in that is the tax cuts that we've received.

Who in the world thinks that we would be better off had we left taxes where they were and that we'd be better off, the economy would be humming along better than it is now if we had higher taxes? I don't know how anybody can state into the camera and say that.

BEGALA: Let me ask just you a fundamental question. Let me just ask you. I know your district is here in Arizona.

FLAKE: Yes. BEGALA: It's not in Fantasy Island. So do we have more Americans working today or fewer Americans working today than the day George Bush took office?

FLAKE: Well, if you look at Arizona, if you look at...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: In America.

FLAKE: At East Valley-I don't know what the national picture is.

BEGALA: Really?

FLAKE: All I know is we've had...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Republicans are this out of touch with the pain that they have wreaked on...

(CROSSTALK)

FLAKE: We have had 9/11. We've had a war. We've had a lot of things.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: ... excuses.

(CROSSTALK)

FLAKE: And, also, also, now, let's get back to the spending side.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: What about jobs?

FLAKE: Hey, if you look at-no, jobs. It all goes to that. When the government takes more of your money and spends it, that's less money you have as a small businessman.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Was the budget balanced when the Democrats were in and is it now in deficit today?

(CROSSTALK)

FLAKE: When Democrats ran congress?

(LAUGHTER)

FLAKE: That's how Congress spends. And Congress is spending too much now. You can't blame all that on the president. But...

HAYWORTH: And speaking of Congress...

FLAKE: When you look at every time we propose something, the Democrats propose something bigger in terms of spending.

HAYWORTH: And speaking of something bigger from the Democrats for my friend Greg, you know, LBJ had a credibility gap. John Kerry has a credible canyon. How can Americans believe Senator Kerry on education? He says over and over that President Bush has cut funds for education, but he knows that overall funding for schools is up from $42 billion to $57 billion during the Bush administration.

Funds to encourage reading are up 43 percent. Teacher quality grants are up 39 percent. Special ed grants are up 75 percent. And Pell Grants for college students have increased 47 percent.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

HAYWORTH: Why is Kerry saying education is headed downward?

MEEKS: First off, J.D., you're right. LBJ had a credibility problem. His credibility problem was because of the Vietnam War. He lied to the American people. He didn't run for reelection because of that.

George Bush has a credibility problem, too. Some of it is because of the Iraqi war.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

MEEKS: He should have taken the advice of LBJ. He shouldn't be running for reelection.

HAYWORTH: So no answer on education. That's interesting, very revealing.

(CROSSTALK)

MEEKS: We know that President Bush talks about leaving no child behind. But yet he left all of the resources so that we could force it behind.

And so the education-if you look at education, it is not moving forward under George Bush. He has these slogans, but he does not keep his word. He has a huge credibility gap with the people.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: Now, I know math isn't something we don't study real well on Capitol Hill, but sounds to me like $57 billion is a lot bigger than $42 billion. That's an increase of $13 billion. Only in Washington would you call an increase a cut. That's kind of hocus pocus.

(CROSSTALK) MEEKS: Every day, you know what happens with just what we do? We get increases because of the cost of living. And you talked about moving on every year. It costs more money.

Well, it's the same thing with education. There's more children that are now enrolled in school this year than were last year. So it costs more money. And we didn't keep up with inflation.

(CROSSTALK)

MEEKS: And that $13 billion doesn't keep up with the inflation.

BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt. Let me come back to another issue, actually, that I hope comes up tonight, hasn't been discussed much in the campaign. And that is health care.

FLAKE: Right.

BEGALA: Now, four years ago, George W. Bush, who didn't have to defend his record, made a promise in the debates four years ago. Let me play that promise for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've got a plan to do something about that. It's to make health care affordable and available.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: To make health care affordable and available, that was his promise. Four years later, premiums are up 58 percent. Drug company profits are up 39 percent. And five million more Americans who had health insurance before Bush took office have lost their health insurance under Bush. He didn't keep that promise, did he, Congressman?

FLAKE: He has done a lot with health care.

BEGALA: Yes, he sure has.

FLAKE: Health savings accounts are going to revolutionize health care. We've got to allow the market to contain costs and improve quickly, instead of the Kerry plan, which is just let government take it over. And that's all it is.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: That's actually not Kerry's plan.

FLAKE: No, no, no, no, it is. Kerry is going to talk about, we're going to take all the uninsured. We're going to let government have catastrophic policy or whatever. That's going to health care. No how he wants to slice it, he had wants government to have a much bigger role. George Bush wants the market to actually help out.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: It's interesting that you all want to shift the debate-actually, a couple of reporters called the Lewin Group, which is a health care consulting firm that the president cites, they said the president is misleading about this, that Kerry's plan is not at all a government takeover.

But why don't you defend the Bush record? He promised he would do something to control costs and make health care affordable. Costs are through the roof. And millions of Americans are out there with no health insurance.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: He's had four years. Why should we give him four more?

FLAKE: He can't do it on his own. The Congress has to help him as well.

BEGALA: No, he can't do it with a Republican Congress either.

FLAKE: Hey, you have to do tort reform. You have to do a number of things that he hasn't been able to get through the Congress. He has tried.

(CROSSTALK)

FLAKE: But health savings accounts have been very effective.

BEGALA: We should reelect him because he's been such a failure.

FLAKE: Hey, when you look at the flip side here and you look at government-controlled health care, that's what you've got to consider.

And when John Kerry stands and says, I'm going to give you free health care, who in the world is going to believe that? There's no such thing as a free lunch. We all know that.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: That's right.

Here it is. Greg, you're a member of the International Relations Committee. Here's a question for you. John Kerry's plan for Iraq assumes he'll be able to convince other countries to join us in the effort. Tell me, Greg, what are the specific countries Kerry is talking about, Germany, France, Brazil? How many troops will they send to a President Kerry?

MEEKS: Well, he's talking about all of those countries that this president insulted. Remember, we forget about-when we were going on. He called them old Europe and that we will do this all alone.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: The same guys pulling the scam on oil-for-food? MEEKS: He's talking about individuals that we are going to be able to sit down because we live in a global world and we want to make sure that we work.

Why should America have to-and American citizens, American taxpayers have to pay 90 percent of all of the costs in Iraq and take 90 percent of the coalition casualties? He's saying that we need to sit down and work, as the president promised he would before he went to war, before he rushed to war. And we're saying we're going to hold him to his word because he's lied to the American people. And we're going to hold him...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: We're going to have to...

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: ... grand jury. That was a lie.

BEGALA: We're going to have to ask all three of the congressmen here to actually hold their words for just a few minutes. We'll come back in just a second.

And when we do, J.D. and I will put our guests through the "Rapid Fire," where the action is even hotter than a jalapeno in the Arizona sunshine.

And then later, the man who wrote the movie "Dave" has some expert advice for the candidates as they try to connect with the audience tonight. Stay with us for the Hollywood perspective on tonight's debate in the CROSSFIRE.

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE from Arizona State University, home of the Sun Devils. It is "Rapid Fire" time, where the questions and answers come even faster than George W. Bush can reward a right- wing media company for airing an anti-Kerry smear.

Here for all the fun on campus, two members of Congress, New York Democrat Gregory Meeks and Arizona Republican Jeff Flake-J.D.

HAYWORTH: And question one for Greg Meeks, Bush and Kerry are tied among Hispanics in Arizona. Can Kerry possibly win nationwide if he splits the Hispanic vote with George W. Bush?

MEEKS: Oh, when-November 2, of course he will. He's going to win the overwhelming majority of Hispanic votes, not only across the nation, but even in your home backyard in Arizona.

(CROSSTALK)

HAYWORTH: We'll see about that.

MEEKS: He'll win Arizona.

BEGALA: Congressman Flake, the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll says over 60 percent of Americans think President Bush is too beholden to corporate special interests. Can you help him out and name me one time George Bush has ever stood up to corporate interest?

(LAUGHTER)

FLAKE: Oh, no, he does all the time.

BEGALA: Just once.

FLAKE: OK. With steel tariffs, when he...

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: That was caving into the big steel companies.

FLAKE: No, no, when he came back and said that we ought to get rid of them. That was a good one. That was a good one.

HAYWORTH: G-man, most affirmative action clergymen side with President Bush on the issue of same-sex marriage. Isn't that controversy John Kerry votes in the African-American community?

MEEKS: Not at all. I've been here with members of clergy here. And they understand that we're not going to get caught in those wedge issues that the Bush administration is trying to lead us down. We understand the overall Supreme Court is a big issue for the African- American community. We understand that's No. 1 for us. And as well, they're talking about health care and jobs.

BEGALA: Congressman Flake, in the last debate, President Bush said that he had made some mistakes in appointments, but he wouldn't say who. Isn't it irresponsible to leave people in office who he believes are incompetent? Shouldn't he just clean and tell which are mistakes? I'll give him-Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, those were bad appointments, right?

FLAKE: No, not at all. How in the world...

BEGALA: Which appointments did he make, did he mean when he said they were mistakes?

FLAKE: I have no idea. I have no idea. We'll leave that to him.

BEGALA: Shouldn't he level with us?

FLAKE: Hey, you can't-particularly when they're in a position of power and when they're doing something, you can't undermine them that way. I think he was responsible in doing that.

BEGALA: You should fire them if they don't have confidence in them.

(CROSSTALK) FLAKE: Well, he will do that, I'm sure.

HAYWORTH: One last question for you, G-man. Did John Kerry lose the election when he equated terrorism as a nuisance to be compared to prostitution and gambling?

MEEKS: Not only did he not lose the election. He's won both debates. And just wait until tonight, when we go for the trifecta.

HAYWORTH: We're looking forward to it.

MEEKS: We're going to make sure when we're through tonight, when he's through tonight, the American people will see the clear difference between a pretender and a contender.

BEGALA: Gregory Meeks with an optimistic prediction for his man John Kerry.

FLAKE: I think that was a French judge that gave him the last one.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: That's Jeff Flake with the last word for the Republicans.

FLAKE: Thank you.

BEGALA: Congressman from Arizona.

Congressman Meeks from New York City.

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