Fox News "Fox News Sunday" - Transcript

Interview

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HUME: President Obama and Mitt Romney gave us a preview this week of the central issue in the fall campaign: what to do about the country's growing debt while also getting the economy going again.
Joining us now to continue the discussion and perhaps help separate the rhetoric from reality, your two leading senators, Democrat Kent Conrad is chairman of the Senate Budget Committee; Republican Ron Johnson is a key member of that committee.
Good morning, gentlemen. Welcome and happy Easter.

SEN. KENT CONRAD, D-N.D.: Happy Easter to you.

SEN. RON JOHNSON, R-WIS.: Happy Easter to you.

HUME: Let me start with you, Senator Conrad. You had been over the years, one of the people who warned most vigorously about a coming debt crisis and the bulging national debt, chairman of the budget committee. We are approaching three years since a budget was passed and you are about to retire.
How do you feel about that?

CONRAD: I feel good about retiring, that's for sure. Let me just say this -- this notion that we have not had a budget three years is just wrong. Last year, we passed the Budget Control Act. And if you read the Budget Control Act, it makes it very clear that it stands in place of a budget resolution.

(CROSSTALK)

CONRAD: In many way, it is stronger than a budget resolution because a budget resolution --

HUME: But doesn't that law --

CONRAD: Let me just conclude --

HUME: But doesn't the law require that you enact a budget resolution?

CONRAD: What the Budget Control Act does is stand in place of a budget resolution. It has in its language what's called a deeming resolution and it says very clearly that the spending limits put in place by the Budget Control Act are the spending limits just as a budget resolution would provide them but it's stronger, because a budget resolution is purely a congressional document. It never goes to the president for signature.
The Budget Control Act is law and not only sets a limit for this year and next. It sets spending limits for 10 years.

HUME: Are you satisfied with that, Senator Johnson?

JOHNSON: No. I mean, the Budget Control Act is maybe a couple dozen numbers and the president's budget, which by the way lost -- his budget last year lost zero to 97 in the Senate and his current budget lost zero to 414 in the House.
The president's budget is about 2,500 pages long. It has all kinds of numbers. I mean, that's actually a real budget. It's not a serious budget. That's really what a budget is.
The Budget Control Act is -- just like I say -- about 24 numbers and it's simply not adequate at all.

HUME: So, Senator Conrad, you nonetheless are preparing now to try to bring a budget to the floor, right?

CONRAD: Look, it's very clear. The Budget Control Act does provide the spending limits for this year.

HUME: Gotcha, we got that.

CONRAD: Now, I want to make a point, because I hear over and over, there's been no budget for three years. The fact is there is. And the fact is what we don't have is a longer term plan. What we need, I believe, is at least a 10-year plan. That's why I'm going to mark up the first week that we're back in session.
And what we need to do is work out on a long-term plan that gets deficit and debt under control and it has a way of bringing us together, because if we don't get together, we can't accomplish anything.

HUME: Do you have any assurance that should you produce such a document from your committee, your majority leader, Senator Reid, would bring it to the floor?

CONRAD: That becomes a matter of timing. I think Senator Reid has made the judgment quite correctly that here is very little chance that we're going to get the two sides together before the election.

HUME: You said two sides. You mean House and Senate?

CONRAD: No. I mean Republicans and Democrats.

HUME: What about it, Senator Johnson?

JOHNSON: It's not a matter of timing. It's a matter of will. And the fact of the matter is, there are no plans. I mean, the president has put forward four budgets now. No plan to save Social Security --

HUME: Senator Johnson, they got a bill for these budgets.

JOHNSON: OK.

HUME: We know it didn't succeed. I'm now talking about the Senate.

JOHNSON: Yes. So you got 23 Democratic Senate seats up. Sixteen of those Democratic senators are running for reelection. They don't want their fingerprints on a plan. That's why they didn't pass a budget the last two years. They don't want to pass a budget and actually commit to a plan that can be attacked --

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: Look at what they do to the Ryan's budget.

HUME: Well, if he brings forth -- if he offers a budget in committee, and you're sitting there.

HUME: You are a member of the committee and you have other Republicans on the committee. Are you prepared to vote, to bring such a plan out to the floor?

JOHNSON: Absolutely, we're willing. We already had budget last year, but we have to force those votes.
I guess I'm wondering, will any Democratic senator actually bring Obama's budget to the floor?

HUME: It only takes 51 votes. You got plenty of Democrats, and more than 51, what's hard about you produce a budget and bring to the floor? What's hard about that?

CONRAD: That is not what is hard. What is hard is actually getting results. What is hard is producing a plan that both sides can support, because, look, we got --

HUME: The Senate, both sides, don't need to support --

(CROSSTALK)

CONRAD: You know, the last time I checked, no law gets enacted in just one house. You got to have both houses and the signature by the president.

(CROSSTALK)

HUME: -- House.

CONRAD: Right. So, how do you do that? How do you actually produce a plan that can get through both sides and be signed by the president?

HUME: It has to be signed by the president. The budget -- if you pass a budget and negotiate a compromise version with the House, that doesn't go to the president, correct?

CONRAD: The budget resolution does not. That's why the Budget Control Act that we passed is stronger than a budget resolution.

HUME: I get that. But you're intending to pass a budget anyway.

CONRAD: But remember, then it has to be implemented. That means appropriations bills have to be passed and the president has to sign it. So, look, anybody that --

HUME: This is regular order, though, isn't it? We are talking about regular order.

CONRAD: Yes. Regular is, first, you have a budget, and then you have appropriations bills. We have a budget, now we're going to have appropriations bills, the president is going to make judgments on those.
What we still lack, Brit -- and let's be we got to get serious about what is required. We got to have a long-term plan. The only way you're going to have a long term that's sustainable is that we get Democrats and Republicans to agree. I was part of the fiscal commission, Bowles-Simpson.

HUME: Right.

CONRAD: There are 11 of 18 of us agreed. Five Democrats, five Republicans, one independent and reduce the debt from what otherwise be by more than $4 trillion. That is what is required. And how does it get done. I don't think it's going to happen with the vote on the Senate floor before the election.

JOHNSON: Brit, what we need is leadership. And we are sorely lacking presidential leadership.
Remember, this is a president who promised he'd cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term, hasn't exactly produced that. He's added $5 trillion of debt -- you know, indebting our children and our grandchildren. No (INAUDIBLE) whatsoever. No plan to save Social Security, no plan to save Medicare.

HUME: Well, I understand.

JOHNSON: We need leadership. So, we need presidential leadership, which is why -- which is why we need to change presidents.

HUME: I hear you. I get that point, Senator Johnson. But you don't need the president to do anything for the Senate --

CONRAD: Right.

HUME: -- to --

JOHNSON: You need Senate leadership. You need Senator Reid to support Senator Conrad in bringing a budget to the floor. Now, again, we're already late. I mean, we should have done this April 1st. We should pass a budget by April 15th. The House has already done so.

HUME: The House has passed a budget, the Ryan budget.

JOHNSON: Right.

HUME: It's been harshly criticized by the president and many others. Would you be prepared to support that budget if it can vote in the Senate?

JOHNSON: Absolutely. I think most Republicans in the Senate would and we will probably try and force a vote on that, as we probably, of course, a vote --

HUME: It won't pass, or will it?

JOHNSON: Probably not. And that's a real shame because, again, we -- you have to take a look at the overall problem here. You know, 10 years ago, our federal government over the last 10 years spent $28 trillion.
The argument moving forward is the House budget would spend $40 trillion over the next 10 years. President Obama wants to spend $47 trillion. We are not cutting anything. We are just trying to limit the rate of growth in government.

HUME: What about that, Senator Conrad?

CONRAD: What about it is, you know --

HUME: It's been called a radical budget, and social Darwinism. It goes to $40 trillion instead of $47 trillion. That doesn't sound too radical.

CONRAD: You know what? That budget is deja vu is all over again.
Look, the last time these guys were in charge, the Bush administration, the Republicans control it all. They took us to the brink of financial collapse with their policies.
At the end of the Bush administration, the economy were shrinking at a rate of 9 percent. We were losing 800,000 private sector jobs a month. Now, the economy --

HUME: What does that have to do with the Ryan budget?

CONRAD: It has everything to do it, because he has the same set of policies contained in that budget that took us to the brink of financial collapse. Do you really want to repeat that? Do we really want to go back to the economy shrinking at a rate of 9 percent, losing 800,000 private sector jobs a month?

HUME: Your view is, that if spending over the years encompassed by that budget were to go to $40 trillion, instead of $47 trillion, it would plunge us into a deep recession?

CONRAD: No. I'm talking about the totalities of the policies contained in that budget. It goes right back to the Bush era policies that took this country to the brink of financial collapse, losing 800,000 private sector jobs a month.

(CROSSTALK)

HUME: Let's assume that you are able to get a budget resolution to the floor and pass it with as many votes as you can get. Do you think that you and Paul Ryan can sit down together in a conference committee with a group of your colleagues and hammer out a compromised budget that you can live with?

CONRAD: I don't know because Representative Ryan part of the Bowles-Simpson commission. He was one of the members who did not support the conclusion. That is the only bipartisan conclusion we have.

HUME: Well, the president didn't support that.

CONRAD: He actually put it in place. He did more than support. He put it in place.

JOHNSON: He totally ignored it. No leadership.

CONRAD: No, I don't think that's fair.
Look, you know, he asked for me my advice. I told him, look, if you embrace this totality of Bowles-Simpson, what will happen is Republicans in the House will not automatically be against it. So, you need to make the case for why it's necessary, but you need those in Congress to work it out.
And, look, I'll tell you -- Senator Johnson is a serious member and, by the way, we should wish him happy birthday.

HUME: Oh, happy birthday, Senator.

JOHNSON: Thank you. Happy Easter to all.

CONRAD: He is -- I'd say this -- he is a serious member of the budget committee.

HUME: Right.

CONRAD: I believe people of good faith working together -- I think it's going to be after the election -- are going to have an opportunity because all the tax cuts are about to expire. We'll be steering --

(CROSSTALK)

HUME: You think a lame duck session in this could have --

(CROSSTALK)

CONRAD: Either. Either them or in the first part of next year.

HUME: Senator Johnson?

CONRAD: I appreciate Senator Conrad's kind comments. Listen, I ran for the United States Senate not only to represent Wisconsin but small and medium size businesses that just feel they are under assault by this administration -- the assault in terms of regulatory overburdening, in terms of increasing tax rates from 35 percent to 44.8 percent under the Obamacare law. It is so dispiriting, so disheartening, which is why this upcoming election is so incredibly important, to put ourselves on a path not of a government-centered society, but one of an opportunity society lead by free people and free enterprise. I mean, that's extremely stark choice in the November election and that's really I think what's so important. The only way it gets done is with real leadership and President Obama has shown himself not to provide any leadership whatsoever.

HUME: Whatever failings you may believe the Ryan budget has, it does address the burgeoning growth of spending on health care, especially on Medicare.

JOHNSON: It also stabilizes the long term debt to GDP ratio and starts bringing it downwards, the most dangerous metric.

HUME: I understand.
Senator Conrad, that issue is going to have to be addressed. I suspect you would like, in some way, to address it now.

CONRAD: You know, again, I was part of Bowles-Simpson. I was part of Group of Six. And both those been usually had serious reforms to health care. For example --

HUME: Would a document you hope to produce in the Senate encompass that?

CONRAD: Part of it. Look, again, what's needed is a bipartisan agreement. And what we have --

(CROSSTALK)

HUME: -- a bipartisan agreement, you were to get it passed through both houses, right?

CONRAD: Exactly. That's really my point.

HUME: You say you don't know if it's possible. But --

CONRAD: I don't know if it's possible before the election. I think -- you know, you just had a vote on Bowles-Simpson on the House, only got 37 votes because I think that demonstrates both sides are unwilling to come together before the election. But after the election, when we're faced with all tax cuts expiring and we're faced with a sequester -- that would be the time that people have more open minds.

HUME: And just think of that, Senator, think of that, Senator, it's in the waning hours of your career in the Senate, anyway, you have a lame duck session, you get this done, and you ride out in a blaze of glory, right?

CONRAD: I'll tell you, nothing would please me more than to be a part of the solution. This is something I've devoted 26 years to. I believe deeply in the need to get our fiscal house in order. To get us back on track. I spent five years, hundreds and hundreds of hours in these bipartisan efforts and I believe we could be close, we could be close to getting a resolution.

HUME: Last word, quickly, Senator.

JOHNSON: See, Republicans are willing to work with people like Senator Conrad. But we need presidential leadership and we have none.

HUME: All right. Gentlemen, thank you for coming in and share part of your Easter with us. Glad to have you here.

JOHNSON: Thanks for having us.

HUME: Coming up: big issue in Congress on the campaign trail. Up next, the president and the Supreme Court. We'll ask our Sunday panel if the former constitutional law professor's comments went too far.
Stay tuned.

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