MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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You know, Biden, Secretary -- Vice President Biden said a better plan over there, when this was being reviewed, Afghanistan, a couple of years ago, was counterterrorism. Don`t try to go in there with counterinsurgency with a big army. Keep aware of the fact that al Qaeda could come back, focus on terrorists and get out of the country.

Wasn`t he -- doesn`t he now look smarter than the policy we have now of this surge of almost 100,000 troops in there?

REP. CHELLIE PINGREE (D), MAINE: Keep in mind that Biden has made many trips over to the country. And I think he`s right. I`ve been a strong advocate from removing our troops. And I think incidents like this
only exacerbate it.

The president did the right thing, but there will be continued turmoil. And this is just one more signal that we spent too much money and we`ve lost too many troops.

MATTHEWS: Why do they hate us so much, that all it takes is something that`s clearly, or it`s no worse than done by -- imagine a couple officers that were bad and did this. They hate the corps. OK, that`s a
couple of guys.

The worst case scenario, it`s probably something like they say it is where they were passing messages with these books. But why has the whole country turned against us? They were just -- it looks like they were
spoiling for an issue.

PINGREE: There`s a lot of turmoil over there. And I think many people in the country appreciate what we have done. But this is a hard place to, quote-unquote, "win." It`s just one more example, I think, of
why we don`t belong there.

MATTHEWS: Wes Moore, thanks for joining us. And thanks for your service.

WES MOORE, U.S. ARMY CAPTAIN (RET): Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Is this an example of just people rubbed raw with nationalism? They don`t like people in their country and they just don`t like them, so they do something wrong, there`s their issue?

MOORE: Well, I think it`s a bigger issue than that, Chris, quite honestly, because I don`t think this has to do with the fact they hate us, per se. I feel like the fact they saw this holy book and they saw the
Koran as their holy book and they saw this desecration of the Koran.

And the fact is, you know, President Obama is correct. This is an inadvertent mistake, but it`s a mistake that`s turned daily. So, with President Obama coming in and making an apology, this is not about
emasculating America. This is about force protection.

And President Obama is trying to look out for the best interest of the soldiers who have to be on the ground fighting this every day and also the civilians who actually have to do their jobs in a hostile work
environment.

So I think -- I think this is about something that`s much bigger than simply about why do they hate us. But then that`s why I think President Obama was so forceful in the way he tried to address this.

MATTHEWS: But why are they running around the streets like this going nuts? Don`t they have places they have to be? Don`t they have something else they have to do?

I`m serious about this. They have devoted their entire beings now to going nuts against us because of what a couple of guys did, you know, intentionally for some reason that may have been justified or unintentionally.

By the way, in the Western religions, when you have a religious article, the proper way to dispose of it is burning it. So that`s not a desecration.

MOORE: No, that`s right.

MATTHEWS: So it`s their interpretation of what they see as a desecration. We don`t look at it that way. An American would never burn something to desecrate it. That would be a way of treating a holy object. That is the appropriate way to do it.

So I don`t -- this whole thing looks like they just don`t like us. They don`t like the West. They think we`re still the Soviets. And we`re never going to be their friends.

MOORE: Well, here`s the thing, Chris. I think -- and this is a very important distinction about Afghanistan is the fact that over in Afghanistan, and I know we saw this when we were fighting over there, there
is a very slim distinction between the actions of individuals and government intent.

And the reason that President Bush was so -- you know, used this argument of force protection in 2008. The reason Secretary Gates spoke out against the burning of Korans by Terry Jones. The reason that Obama has spoken out about the burning of the Korans in this case is the fact we can see the actions of individuals and know that that is not necessarily the actions of the government or the intent of the government.

That is not the case in Afghanistan. They are looking at this and wondering, is this not the way the entire government feels about us, is this not the way the entire -- the entire -- all the coalition forces feel
about us and feel about our holy book.

So that`s why I think it`s an important distinction to draw about Afghanistan and the way we feel over here as well.

MATTHEWS: Well, you know -- go ahead, Congresswoman. Go ahead.

PINGREE: Well, I was just going to say, I have to agree. I think Wes has laid it out very well.

This is the holy book of the majority of people in that country. They don`t know if an individual did this or this is the policy of the United States.

I think it`s not surprising that there`s a tremendous amount of uprising. I think the president handled it in the right way. And it`s one more challenge that we have to face.

I don`t think this is surprising and says that everyone hates us.

MATTHEWS: Well, what`s all that crowd about we`re watching here? What are they -- thousands and thousands of people not working, spending all their time screaming and yelling. Is this just for the cameras?

PINGREE: I think --

MATTHEWS: This looks like real passion here. Look at this multitude of people here raising their arms, yelling and screaming like nothing else matters to them on this planet except that we burnt their holy book.

Nothing is as important to these people as this fact. Not they`re fighting the Taliban. That al Qaeda is waiting to come back in. Not that they are facing Sharia law.

That this -- do you, Congresswoman, really believe this is the most important thing in the world, these people? What they`re doing?

PINGREE: Let`s face it. I think it`s an angry country that`s tired of being at war, that many people are out of work and they`re frustrated and tired about the situation that they`re in. But they still have the
right to be angry --

MATTHEWS: OK.

PINGREE: -- about what`s going on with their holy books.

MOORE: And in addition to the fact that we have to understand it`s the Taliban who also has been behind a lot of the riling up. They have really been some of the leading cheerleaders and the ones spreading out
around the country as well.

MATTHEWS: I don`t like the looks of this.

Thank you, Congresswoman Chellie Pingree of Maine.

PINGREE: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: And, Wes Moore, thank you again for your service, sir.

MOORE: Thanks, Chris.

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