MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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Senator Sanders, I was listening to you this morning. And I am so impressed by you because, like me, you`re a little further left of me, I must say, but you`re a `60s guy and you have got a heart about this stuff. And I really think that we ought to hear from people like you more often in these times.

Maybe in good times, I don`t want to hear from you.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: But I do want to hear from you in bad times, because you do have something of the understanding of the role of public policy. You don`t just sit back and be Herbert Hoover again.

We tried doing nothing. We tried balancing the budget. We tried cutting spending. Even Roosevelt talked that up in `32, as you know. It didn`t work. It landed up with 25 percent unemployment and a horrific
economic situation if it weren`t for World War II.

So talk. What should we do?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Well, first thought, you were right a moment ago when you said we don`t hear very much about poverty in America. And you know why that is, Chris? It`s because many poor people don`t vote. You know that. And poor people certainly don`t make a whole lot in campaign contributions.

So we kind of push them aside, except when we can use them as a political football for the right wing to blame all of the problems in the world on poor people.

The reality is -- and we had a hearing on this yesterday -- is that not only is poverty in America growing because the middle class is collapsing and more and more people are ending up poor, but poverty is not
just what many people think it is. Oh, people live in bad housing. You know, people don`t have a good car. They don`t go to the movies on Saturday night.

You know what poverty is about, Chris? Many people don`t know this.

MATTHEWS: What?

SANDERS: And this is what we heard from physicians yesterday.

If you are in the lower 20 percent of income earners, you are going to die, D-I-E, six-and-a-half years earlier than somebody in the top 20 percent. What do you think about that?

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s like you hear -- well, that`s what I hear from countries. I was in the Peace Corps. I hear that from the country I was in, that when they really have bad times, that`s -- let`s take a look at
something I want you to talk about which to me is graphic and I don`t think I will soon forget it.

On Monday`s Republican debate down in Tampa, where they are having their convention next year, there was a moment, an exchange with Representative Ron Paul about government safety nets. The specific
question was whether someone without insurance who was in a coma should receive care or just simply be left to die?

Let`s watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RON PAUL (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That`s what freedom is all about, taking your own risk. This whole idea that you have to prepare and take care of everybody --

WOLF BLITZER, DEBATE MODERATOR: But, Congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die?

PAUL: No.

AUDIENCE: Yes!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Didn`t you hear that hooting and hollering, it was like the Roman Coliseum, yes, yes, yes, and the woman in the right jacket there, shaking her head positively, yes, yes, yes. What do you make of this?

SANDERS: Well, I`ll tell you what I make of this. I know Ron Paul and I have known him for many years. When I was in the House, we`ve worked together. Ron is a straightforward and honest guy. I respect that.

This is what these guys believe. And what they believe ultimately is everybody is on your own, and that`s great if you have a whole lot of money. You know what? If you`re in a coma and when you have a whole lot
of money, you`re going to get good health care. But what they are saying to working people, to the middle class, to low-income people, we are going to abolish Social Security.

Government shouldn`t play a role in retirement security. We are going to abolish Medicare and Medicaid.

Now, you know, that all comes under the rhetoric as we hate the government. But the reality is for -- and we`re going to give huge tax breaks to the wealthy. The reality is we, i.e. right wing extremists,
believe that what society is about is allowing the big money interests and the wealthy to have all kinds of power, all kinds of privileges, but if you`re in the middle class or if you`re working person, forget about it.
You`re on your own.

And if you get sick and you don`t have any health insurance, guess what? This is what they are saying. You are going to die. That`s it.

And I have to respect their honesty in saying it. That is their politics. That is what they believe. Forget about Medicare. Forget about Medicaid.

MATTHEWS: Who started the new religion that taxes and government are bad? They now treat taxes, these abolitionists, the way antebellum Republicans talked about slavery, like it was an essential evil.

SANDERS: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: When did that start?

SANDERS: Well, I think what you got -- I think what you got is you got some well-funded folks which have gone on, you know, they organized after Barry Goldwater was devastated. They came up with an absurd right wing philosophy based on Ayn Rand`s philosophy, and what that philosophy about is essentially you are on your own. And to be on your own means that we don`t need any tax revenue for Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security.

And in fact, somehow it is wonderful -- you know, one of the points you made earlier, we should also dwell on, and that is while the middle class collapses and poverty increases, what else is going on? The wealthiest people are doing phenomenally well. Corporations are enjoying record-breaking profits. The rich are paying --

MATTHEWS: You know why? Here`s my theory. Now, this sounds Marxists and I don`t want to skip to your left on this.

SANDERS: Oh, my goodness.

MATTHEWS: I want to tell you something. When I see automation, when I got to a CVS, used to employ a lot of people just above the poverty level, above minimum wage, and you walk in there now, it`s all machines. Now, it`s very convenient for the customer. It`s all machines.

There`s a checkout machine, by the way, that talks to you and says don`t forget to put your CVS card in. And, by the way, I used to have about seven or eight cameramen, I don`t have them anymore, it`s automated, it`s all robots.

SANDERS: Yes. OK.

MATTHEWS: Everywhere we go, it`s robots.

SANDERS: Chris

MATTHEWS: I used to go to a gas station, have somebody would check your tires and check your oil, there ain`t anybody there. There`s nobody working in a gas station.

SANDERS: But here`s another reality, Chris. I think that that`s an important point, no question about it. Robotics, automation have played a very important role.

But I`ll tell you what else has played an important role and that is our disastrous trade policies pushed on us by corporate America. That is NAFTA, KAFTA, permanent, normal trade relations with China.

Do you know how many factories we`ve lost in the last 10 years? The answer is 50,000 factories. When you go shopping, you don`t buy products made in the United States. They are made in China.

MATTHEWS: OK.

SANDERS: We`ve got to work on that issue, rebuild manufacturing, create decent paying jobs there.

MATTHEWS: You know where the problem is there, because my old neighborhood which was an Irish neighborhood in north Philly, now, it`s an African-American neighborhood, the houses are in bad shape now and it basically looked like the same neighborhood except for one thing. There`s no factory like there was for my grandfather to go work in two stops on the subway. Those factories aren`t there anymore.

SANDERS: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: There`s no job for the entry level kid who graduates from high school.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: That`s it.

SANDERS: We`ve got to tell our friends in corporate America to start reinvesting in the United States of America, rebuild manufacturing here rather than running to China.

MATTHEWS: OK. I respect your logic because you`re a `60s guy and on this particular economic situation, you`re the man to listen to. Thank you very much. I wish we didn`t have to listen to you, but in these times, you`ve got to listen to Bernie Sanders.

Anyway, thank you, sir, for joining us from Vermont.

SANDERS: Thanks, Chris.

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