MSNBC "The Ed Show" - Transcript

Interview

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The president said he"s willing to stake his presidency on this deal?

How does that reach you tonight?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Well, I think what the president is saying is, the Republicans are giving us two offers. Number one, if we don"t give them everything that they want, they"re prepared to--for the first time in the history of the United States--default on our debts in the midst of a very fragile world economy, raise interest rates in this country, cost us a significant number of jobs, and perhaps deny benefits to the elderly and many other people who are waiting for those benefits.

And the second option that they"re giving us is, they"re going to slash Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, nutrition, education, environmental protection, and not ask the wealthiest people of this country who are doing phenomenally well, whose tax rates have gone down. Not ask corporations who are earning huge profits and in some cases not paying any taxes. They don"t have to participate in deficit reduction. It"s simply on the backs of working families.

SCHULTZ: It seems like President Obama is willing to put the politics aside of all of this. He"s willing to turn to his base as he said at the press briefing the other day. He"ll take the political heat and the political down side of it all. He must be serious, big time, because if he"s willing to put his presidency on the line and put his base in jeopardy to maybe pick up a few independent voters for being the honest broker in the room, this is a big political gamble, is it not?

SANDERS: Well, I will tell you what I think, Ed, I maybe wrong on this. But I think at the end of the day, our good friends on Wall Street who helped cause this recession in the first place--a lot of the other very big businesses who fund the Republican Party are saying to our Republican friends, you know what, enough is enough.

SCHULTZ: But Cantor is not listening to that.

SANDERS: Cantor is not, but Mitch McConnell is, and John Boehner is.

SCHULTZ: So, do you think there"s enough Republicans out there that would take the McConnell deal?

SANDERS: I think being pressured by big business and Wall Street, there may well be.

And what we will have then is not an optimum situation. In many ways, it"s simply kicking the can down the road. But compared to the other two options of defaulting or making savage cuts on programs that working people desperately need, it is probably the preferable option at this moment.

SCHULTZ: All right. Moody"s investor services placed the AAA bond rating of the government of the United States on review for possible downgrade given the rising possibility that the statutory debt limit will not be raised on a timely basis.

What"s your take on this? Are we turning the hourglass on the American economy?

SANDERS: Absolutely. Look, everybody knows the economy is in disastrous shape right now. If we default, if interest rates go up, if there"s turmoil in the international economy--this will make a very bad situation much worse.

And I think people like John Boehner and Mitch McConnell and corporate America are beginning to catch on to that reality.

SCHULTZ: And, Senator, what was your response to the president when he told an anchor in an interview that he couldn"t guarantee that the checks would be there on April 3rd? That he couldn"t guarantee the Social Security checks would hit people"s bank accounts if we don"t take action? What"s your response to that? Is that true or false?

SANDERS: Well, there are differences of opinion about that. There are some who would argue, and I would tend to agree, that given the fact that Social Security has a $2.6 trillion surplus, that you can figure out a way and you must make sure that seniors and disabled vets get their checks.

SCHULTZ: So you would take issue with the president on that statement, that he may have been fearmongering in a sense?

SANDERS: What he is saying is look, there"s not enough money here to pay our debts, that"s true. I think in fact, we can pay Social Security. But, look, let"s be clear--if we default, it is a disaster. No sane person wants that to happen.

SCHULTZ: Are we getting closer to the question of a real possibility and a constitutional move by the president?

SANDERS: That"s another option that"s out there. The president has kind of not put that front and center. I happen to believe that at the end of the day because of the impact of the business community, all the money they raise for the Republicans, I think some of our Republican friends will see the light and, in fact, we will not default.

SCHULTZ: Are the Republicans as arrogant as they seem, Senator?

SANDERS: I think you got a group of them who in their hearts believe that government should not be involved in Social Security, in Medicare, in Medicaid, education. Certainly, they want to--even after the Wall Street fiasco, do more deregulation there, deregulation of the energy companies and so forth. That is it what they believe and they believe it passionately.

SCHULTZ: But they have the very president at the table willing to do that, and they won"t take the deal because there might be some more revenue involved. I find this amazing.

SANDERS: Well, you know, the columnists, the conservative columnist from the "New York Times," Brooks, made the point that these guys can"t take yes for an answer. They"ve won. They already have Obama making far more concessions in my view, than he should have made. But it"s still not good enough for them.

SCHULTZ: And finally--and finally, did the president do the right thing tonight from the reports that you"ve heard the way he handled that meeting and his stance right now?

SANDERS: Absolutely. I think the American people are catching on that Republican obstinacy, saying it"s their way or the highway, just is not what American government is supposed to be about. So, I think the president did do the right thing.

SCHULTZ: But if the president has the Republicans taking this deal at that fat number, I don"t know how he gets re-elected. I don"t know how those basers go out there and write the $25 checks. I don"t know how they go door to door. I don"t know how to keep the confidence.

SANDERS: But, Ed, I don"t think that"s the end result going to be. I think, in fact, you"re not going to see that. I think what you"re going to see is kind of a stalemate, no significant action on deficit reduction right now, but in fact, no default--probably the best option at this moment.

SCHULTZ: And it just seems like Mitch McConnell is willing to fight the president on another day and concede this fight. That"s what it seems like.

Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, great to have you with us. Thanks for your time.

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