MSNBC Scarborough Country - Transcript

SHOW: SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY 22:00

May 5, 2004 Wednesday

HEADLINE: SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY For May 5, 2004

BYLINE: Dana Kennedy; Lawrence O'Donnell; Mike Barnicle; Joe Scarborough

GUESTS: Wil Hylton; Kim Masters; James Hirsen; Anthony Weiner; Mark Brzezinski; John Ensign

HIGHLIGHT:
Saddam's atrocities take a back seat to the Iraqi prisoner controversy. As scandal infects the United Nations, are officials at the highest level stonewalling the investigation? It's Mickey Mouse vs. Michael Moore, as Disney refuses to distribute the director's new film.

REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D), NEW YORK: Bad for business? "Bowling For Columbine" was the most profitable documentary ever made.

This is a movie that's in great demand, whether you like it or someone might not like the politics of it. This is bad on a lot of levels. It's bad if you're concerned about free speech. It's bad if you finally want the truth to come out about the Saudis, something that you have been on the soapbox about, just like I have for years. And it's especially bad if you're a shareholder in Disney who's saying, wait a minute, this is a hot product. This is the first movie since "Bowling For Columbine."

It's certainly of a topic that people are interested in, and they are refusing, without even seeing it, to distribute it. I think it's outrageous on a lot of different levels. Even if you don't believe in Michael Moore's politics, if you're a shareholder in Disney, I'd be pretty ticked off that not only are they taking a pass, they're doing it in a public way. I guarantee, if you and I have this conversation a year from now, someone else will have released it and made a bundle of money on it.

SCARBOROUGH: Certainly. And it does. It sounds like "The Passion" all over again.

James Hirsen of NewsMax.com, conservatives were very upset about the way "The Passion" was treated over the past six months or so, said people like Frank Rich were trying to stand in the way of Mel Gibson's right as an artist to create. It was free speech. Well, aren't we talking about the same thing here with Michael Moore, even though I don't like Michael Moore's documentary, his last one? I don't think I'll like this one. But, still, it's free speech. Shouldn't he have the right to distribute it?

JAMES HIRSEN, AUTHOR, "TALES FROM THE LEFT COAST": He does have the right.

I don't like Michael Moore's politics. I'm not a shareholder in Disney. I do before in free expression. And free expression protects that speech which offends us. And so, he has that right.

But let's look at this on both sides. There's some strategy going on here, Joe. We look at Michael Eisner. He's been beleaguered for a long time. He needs to restore a tarnished image of Disney. Now, wouldn't it be a lot better for him if he ends up distributing this involuntarily through mediation or arbitration? So Disney almost had to turn this down. They freely contracted for the provision. They almost had to use it, knowing what kind of sort of lightning rod that Michael Moore is.

Now, we look on the other side, and, as was pointed out earlier, Michael Moore has known about this for a year. Miramax has known about this for a year. And "Bowling For Columbine" didn't get its distribution deal until after it premiered at the Cannes Film Festival, which is happening next week. And now Michael Moore and Miramax have all kinds of free publicity and controversy.

Don't feel sorry for them. They're going to get a distribution deal, and this film is going to end up doing better from the way the story hit. The timing is such.

Kim Masters, you're the author of "Keys to the Kingdom: How Michael Eisner Lost His Grip."

Tell me, what do you think went through Eisner's mind when he decided to make this move? Again, you've written about him. You've studied him. This has been a tough year. Why make this controversial decision now?

KIM MASTERS, AUTHOR, "KEYS TO THE KINGDOM": Well, I think he initially made the controversial decision, as others have said, about a year ago. And I think at the time he may have been, as Michael Moore's agent says, worried about tax breaks in Florida.

I think since then, the pressure on him has gotten so high, that for this to break now, you know, he has made a lot of promises to shareholders that there's going to be a considerable improvement in their results, and that's dependent enter on theme park performance. And I think, with all that's happened in the past few months, if there were a right-wing backlash against this film, if there were a boycott that got some traction, that, if it touched the theme park revenues, that's far for damaging to Disney than whatever they're going to gain from distributing this film.

So I think that is what is going through Michael Eisner's mind: I don't need this. I don't want people organizing a boycott. And even though boycotts in the past haven't gotten that much traction, who knows. We're at war. It's a very emotional thing. This could actually galvanize people. And he doesn't need that kind of publicity and that problem.

SCARBOROUGH: And I want to play you Disney CEO Michael Eisner and what he said about the Michael Moore movie today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL EISNER, CEO, DISNEY: That film will get a distributor easily. There are many people that would love to have that film, successful filmmaker. Just Our company decided that we did not want a film in the middle of the political process where we're such a nonpartisan company, and our guests that participate in all of our attractions do not look for us to take sides. But I think it's a totally appropriate film.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH: Kim Masters, respond.

MASTERS: Well, I think that that's a good argument to say. What's he going to say? He can't say, you know, I don't want people coming down on me for political reasons. I think he's absolutely right. They will find a distributor. They will probably sell it.

They will-I think Miramax, at least Harvey Weinstein and his brother, who run Miramax, will keep a piece of it and they will make a fortune. "Bowling For Columbine" grossed over 100 -- made like $125 million, counting DVDs, cost about $5 million or $6 million to make. You do the math. I think it's tough for Disney to pass it up.

But I think, for Michael Eisner right now, it's the better-it's more-it's the better part of the argument, to just let it go.

SCARBOROUGH: You all stay with us. We have much more on this.

Also ahead, is Colin Powell ready to cut his ties with the Bush administration? We'll be talking to a journalist who says yes in a new profile of the embattled secretary of state.

Plus, a news helicopter crashes into a building and all three passengers make it out alive. We've got the incredible footage as the chopper goes down next.

ANNOUNCER: You're watching SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. Now here's some Hotwire travel trivia. If you want to take your mom to the state that first celebrated Mother's Day, where would you go?

Stay tuned for the answer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: You're watching SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. And in today's Hotwire travel trivia, we asked you, if you want to take your mom to the state that first celebrated Mother's Day, where would you go? The answer is West Virginia. A church in Grafton, West Virginia, claims to have first celebrated Mother's Day in 1908.

Now back to Joe.

SCARBOROUGH: Well, I celebrated my first Mother's Day in Atlanta, Georgia, in 1963 with my mom.

Anthony Weiner, I heard a statement that Disney was nonpartisan. Do you buy that?

WEINER: Well, if they want to be, they should take Rush Limbaugh off all of their stations. And I don't, of course, advocate that.

But I think it really does raise the question about their partisanship. Look, Eisner is hanging on by his fingertips at Disney. And one of the reasons is, is, he makes crummy decisions. A good decision to make is to follow the lead of Miramax, who has shown that they know how to find movies that find popular support.

To have someone-if I own a share in Disney and I hear the CEO just say on your show, we decided to take a pass, but someone will pick it up and make a lot of money on it, it makes you wonder what kind of decisions this company, which is an entertainment company, what kind of decisions they're making. They're passing on what their own CEO says will be a very profitable movie.

SCARBOROUGH: It's going to be a big hit. And so many media companies as we know every week release a book through their parent company that's controversial, that's partisan. It's called free speech.

David Kennedy, I want to ask you, do you agree with Kim Masters, though, that Disney could make money in the short run, but then possibly lose in the end?

KENNEDY: If they decide to go ahead with the decision not to distribute this, you mean?

SCARBOROUGH: No, I mean if they distributed it.

KENNEDY: Oh, yes, I think that would actually be, in a way, the smart move. And I agree with what Kim said, that the shareholders might not be happy if they learn this money won't be lining their pockets.

SCARBOROUGH: All right, Kim, let me ask you, what's so controversial about this film? Obviously, politics plays a part in a lot of movies. When's so terrible about this one?

MASTERS: Well, we haven't seen this movie, and neither did Disney when they decided not to distribute it. What we have seen is Michael Moore's previous work. And obviously it can be quite incendiary.

I think Michael Moore is an incredible genius. He has a genius for doing documentaries, which normally make no money at all, and just catching this kind of Zeitgeist and driving everybody crazy and generating a lot of publicity, as he's doing right now, which translates into a lot of box office. He seeks controversy with much more skill than most people who seek it.

SCARBOROUGH: Like I said, he and Mel Gibson may have been talking.

James Hirsen, I'll give you the last word.

HIRSEN: Yes.

I would say that Michael Moore doesn't make documentary. He makes fake-umentaries. And when I said he was a lightning rod, on his Web site, he said that the terrorists that are killing our soldiers are not insurgents. They're not the enemy. He said they're part of the revolution. He said they're minutemen. He said their numbers will grow, and they will win.

It's this kind of over-the-top outrage, and it's stuff that he put in "Bowling For Columbine" that would cause a company like Disney, that has a long heritage associated with family values, to back away from this because they stand to lose in the long run in their theme parks and hotels.

SCARBOROUGH: All right, James Hirsen, you know, of course, he also said he didn't want the U.N. to get involved because he thought, since America got into the war, it should be Americans who died there. Nice touch there.

Well, thanks a lot, James Hirsen, Dana Kennedy, Kim Master. And Congressman Weiner, as always, thanks for coming on our show.

Now moving on, is Colin Powell ready to jump ship? In the upcoming issue of "GQ" magazine, our next guest reports that Secretary of State Colin Powell is exhausted, frustrated and bitter, uncomfortable with President George W. Bush's agenda, and according to Powell's chief of staff, he wouldn't be interested in another four years.

With me now Wil Hylton. He's from "GQ" magazine.

Wil, I'll tell you what. This is a bombshell. Tell us, how did you get access? And I read the article. How did you get such great access to Powell and insiders to get this story that nobody else has gotten?

WIL HYLTON, "GQ": I didn't. And the answer is, it beats me.

I went to Powell's staff and I said, I'd like to do a story about Colin Powell, maybe a personality piece. And they said, well, no, we're not going to do that. We're not going to cooperate with that. But if you want, you can write a story about politics and foreign policy and specifically the machinations that go on behind the scenes to affect policy. And I said, well, who would I talk to if I was going to do that story? And they started feeding me these names, the chief of staff, the deputy secretary of state. It was spectacular.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH: They wanted the story out, didn't they, Wil?

HYLTON: I got the sense that they must, because I went in and interviewed these guys and that's what they were telling me. Powell is frustrated. He's bitter. He wants to quit. So you tell me, did he want the story out? It sure looks like it.

SCARBOROUGH: Do you keep pinching yourself, saying I cannot believe what these officials are saying to me on the record?

HYLTON: It was very surprising to me. And it was all on the record. And I have it all on the tape. And I read my transcripts, I listen to my tapes and I think, I don't know why they wanted to come out and say all this. But I'm sure they have their reasons.

SCARBOROUGH: Yes, I'm sure they do.

Now, according to the State Department spokesman Richard Boucher, the article doesn't paint a fair picture. And this is what he said today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I took issue with the substance of what was being said. I took issue with the imputation and the conclusions being drawn from some of those remarks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH: You know, Wil, I've been in Washington long enough to know that they have to say that. Were you surprised, though, that after they cooperated with you so much, they send out the spokesman who essentially denies it?

HYLTON: I was-I've been just sort of fascinated and amused by this backpedaling that they have done. I noticed that they did it with the Woodward book, which they clearly cooperated on and gave lots of information on, and then they distanced themselves from it.

And they kind of did the same thing here. They send me to all these people. These people all gave me a unanimous report. And then they kind of didn't really want that to be attributed to Powell. And I just go back to the editorial in "The New York Times" last week that said, it seems like Powell wants to have it both ways. He wants to show everybody that he disagreed with certain decisions that were made, but, at the same time,, also, he wants to seem loyal to the president.

And it does seem like he's trying to have it both ways and it doesn't seem like it's working.

SCARBOROUGH: No, it doesn't.

Wil, a final question here. Does it seem to you that what-because I've always got this from just reading about Powell. It seems to me that, in a sense, he's very embarrassed to be associated with George Bush. He's even made jokes in the past about how George Bush wasn't the smartest guy in the world. Did you sense that while talking to these associates, that he just wanted to have nothing to do with this president?

HYLTON: I got a very clear sense from these guys that they thought he felt that way.

Now, I can't speak for Powell because I didn't get that when I talked to Powell. He dodged some of my questions in very clever and charming ways. And he didn't say the same things. But, from the aides, I got a unanimous consensus. Harlan Ullman, who is his friend and mentor from the National War College, told me in no uncertain terms, he said, it's hard for Powell to penetrate this administration.

And I think that speaks volumes about how Powell feels.

SCARBOROUGH: I think it does, too.

Wil Hylton, thanks a lot, a great article. If you haven't read it yet, get "GQ" magazine. You're not going to want to miss it.

Now, don't go away, because, just ahead, a helicopter spins out of control and crashes into a building with three passengers on board. All of them survived. But, from the looks of things, the helicopter didn't. We're going to have that incredible footage coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH: Tomorrow night: There is a new book out. And President Bush says he's promising to make John Kerry pay for berating the coalition that liberated Iraq. We're going to be talking about that and much more in the book that hits bookstores tomorrow.

We'll tell you about it, but more SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY straight ahead tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH: Last week, we did a story about an article in "The Houston Chronicle." It was about a local soldier who died in Iraq.

Leroy Sandoval Jr. was killed in Fallujah on March 26. His father and sister came on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to claim that "The Chronicle" used his death to promote an anti-war agenda. The sentence in "The Chronicle" objected to read as follows-quote-"The soldier's family did not want to discuss their sentiments about the war or the political debate surrounding President Bush's failure to find weapons of mass destruction, one of the prime reasons cited for invading Iraq last year."

Now, the paper declined to provide a representative to come on our show with the family. What they sent is a statement that I didn't see until after the show. We regret the oversight. And because we strive to be fair, I want to read "The Houston Chronicle" statement now.

They said-quote-"We called the Sandoval family and apologized for upsetting them. We continue to extend our deepest sympathies to the Sandoval family and to each family that has lost a loved one in service to our country. In reporting all sides of a story, newspaper reporters often have to ask uncomfortable questions. 'The Chronicle' believes strongly in free speech and balanced reporting."

And now a news crew's close call. In Brooklyn, New York, this WNBC news chopper crashed Saturday. The helicopter was covering a shooting when it spun out of control and slammed into an apartment building. The three people aboard miraculously escaped without serious injuries. Officials are investigating the accident.

Hey, I want to thank you for being with us tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. Tomorrow night, we're going to be talking about the newest book on President Bush, "Misunderestimated." You're not going to want to miss that.
We'll see you tomorrow night.