MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript

Interview

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RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: Let me ask you about one last issue. And I encourage you to tell me I"m wrong if you disagree with the premise--

NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: O.K.

MADDOW: -- but I think that this year Republicans will try to split Democrats on the issue of the war in Afghanistan. I think they are anticipating a more hawkish stance from the president on Afghanistan than they think that you and other Democrats in congress will be able to go along with.

Do you think that"s correct? How do you see the issue of the Afghanistan war playing out this year?

PELOSI: I really don"t see it as a political or a partisan issue.

There will be those who--we don"t know what the president will present

We know there is significant unease in the country about what our goals are there and how is it in the interest of our national security and what are the metrics--how are the metrics being met in terms of progress there. But I don"t see it as something that would be divisive.

I think on both sides of the aisle, people will have their views about the length of time we should stay there, the commitment of troops. This is a place where we have spent so much in terms of the lives of our young people, the public treasury in terms of the dollars, which are insignificant compared to the lives of our young people, their health when they come back.

The attempts to meet security needs, construction needs. I don"t want to say reconstruction because there isn"t that much there in Afghanistan to begin with. A regional approach to how we do the geopolitics of the region to make sure that our national interest is served, and that"s why we"re there, and the corruption issue which is overwhelming. It"s overwhelming.

So all of these have to be addressed and they have been. Now let"s see what progress we"re making, and people will make their own decision. We don"t even ask people on a war vote. People have their views on the subject. They"re very clear about it.

So we don"t have to say vote for the president on this. We gave him a chance when he first came in, to say--give him a chance to make his own plan. Now we will see what that is.

MADDOW: In terms of your own view, if come July there has not been substantial progress, qualitative progress on some of the measures you described, things like corruption in the Afghan government, Afghan governance, the strength of extremism in that region, if things have not substantially gotten better or if they have in fact gotten worse, is that then a reason to stay longer or is that a reason to come home more quickly?

PELOSI: Let me just separate some of those issues. First of all, we will begin the deployment of troops out of Afghanistan come this summer, as we know. What that rate of return home is, we shall see, and it will probably relate to some of the criteria that you mentioned.

But corruption is--I was there Mother"s Day--I"m about to go--I wanted to say soon--I can"t say when. I was there on Mother"s Day. We visited our moms in the military, the grand moms in the military, but we also visited everyone, all of the troops.

But we went far away, to Kandahar and then beyond, an hour by helicopter into remote areas to talk to women. And women--the poorest women that we met there were practically beggars--maybe last year they were beggars, this year they"re separating raisins from twigs and making a living doing that.

They were so wise. They said to us, "We want all of these things, education and health care for our daughters, and the rest, but we can"t have that without security." And they went on to say, "We can"t have security unless we end corruption." In the remotest parts of Afghanistan, they understood that the corruption issue is corrosive.

MADDOW: Is our presence there making it better or worse?

PELOSI: Depends on who you ask, but hopefully it"s making it better.

But not in every instance.

But it"s something that the president, the vice president, I as speaker at the time, and others have tried to impress upon the Afghan government, that this has to change. Because it"s not just--it"s not penny ante corruption. Give me five dollars to cross the road.

It"s systemic corruption and, you know what? It"s our money. A lot is our money. So now they"re saying, "Well you"re putting all this money here, so you"re contributing to corruption." Well, that"s I think almost silly.

But what we"re trying to do is help win the hearts and minds, build

roads, schools, clinics and the rest of that. And you know what? This war

you know, with all of rest of it, of course we have to act in our national security, what protects the American people. Our first responsibility is to keep them safe.

But the fact is we can"t afford this war, endlessly unpaid for, in addition to our other security obligations. So at some point there"s going to have to be a moment where we say, "Can we do this better another way or are we getting results? Let"s see." But it"s very controversial, Afghanistan.

MADDOW: And you think we are capable of having a robust, sound debate on that without it being party line, without it being partisan?

PELOSI: I think so. I mean, I certainly hope so. It is about our national security, and that"s our responsibility to the American people.

And the issue of fighting terrorism is something that the American people support our doing, that we have to do. Is this the best use of our resources to get that done? President Karzai, is he a reliable partner? He seems to be the only partner.

But again, all of these things have to be put on the table for us to review, because this cannot be endless. Then you have the issue of the debt ceiling. The Republicans are saying, well, they don"t want to raise the debt ceiling.

Well what does that mean? They want us to stay in Afghanistan? They want us to stay in Iraq--what does that mean?

That we don"t take care of our troops where they are if they--if we don"t have resources to do that, that we don"t--are not responsible in terms of the national debt, that we"re not responsible in terms of sending out social security checks, paying our troops, those kinds of things?

So they have to see that the budget is a binder in all of these things and we have to establish what our priorities are and what the best way is to do the job that we must do, protect the American people, create jobs, reduce the deficit, educate the public, invest in innovation for the future, to be the great country that we are.

But that Afghanistan situation slows us down. It slows us down.

MADDOW: Leader Pelosi, you are as busy as you ever have been and I"m very grateful for this time with you.

PELOSI: It was my pleasure.

MADDOW: Thank you.

PELOSI: Thank you, Rachel. It"s wonderful to see you.

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