FOX News "FOX News Sunday with Chris Wallace" - Transcript

Interview

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WALLACE: Democrats still hold power in the Senate, so how will they deal with legislation passed by the Republican-controlled House? For answers, we turn to the number two Democrat in the Senate, Dick Durbin, who comes to us from his home state of Illinois. Welcome, Senator.

SEN. DICK DURBIN, D-ILL.: It's good to be with you, Chris.

WALLACE: We hear that the president will focus on jobs in the State of the Union speech, but I want to bring up the point that Senator McConnell just did. Haven't the trillions of dollars in new spending and the thousands of new regulations enacted under President Obama, haven't they stopped some businesses from more hiring?

DURBIN: Chris, people shouldn't forget where we were when President Obama took the oath of office. We were facing not only a recession, but the prospects of something much, much worse. We understood that we lost a lot of jobs. In fact, we were losing jobs at dramatic, historic rates when the president took office.

And he moved forward with the stimulus package, which was one- third tax cut for working families, a third safety net for the states, localities and the unemployed, and a third investment in infrastructure for America.

I think that stimulus package stopped the bleeding, if you would, and really gave us a chance to come out of this recession, not as quickly as we wanted, but to avoid a dramatic global recession which could have been much, much worse.

WALLACE: Well, maybe, and I think a lot of people would argue it could have been much worse. But the fact is, with everything you talked about and with those thousands of new regulations, we've ended up with at this point still 9.4 percent unemployment.

DURBIN: Which is unacceptable, but we're at least moving in the right direction. The president I'm sure in the State of the Union address will make it clear, his highest priority is putting America back to work, making sure that our nation is more competitive.

You know, Chris, we just had a visit from the Chinese president, and I had a chance to meet him when he came to Chicago. It's a reminder to us that we are in competition in this world for jobs.

DURBIN: And if we are going to make it in the USA, which we can make, in terms of our success and in terms of making products, we have to focus on educating and innovating. We can't be so laser focused on the deficit that we ignore the obvious. We are still in a recession. We need to put America back to work. You can't end the deficit unless you start putting America back to work.

WALLACE: Well, let me ask you specifically about that, because the reports are that the president will call for some additional spending in the State of the Union on infrastructure, on education, on research. Is this still another stimulus plan?

DURBIN: Well, it is part of a stimulus but we're sensitive to the deficit. You know, I was part of the president's deficit commission. Five out of the six senators who were appointed, three Republicans, and two Democrats, myself and Senator Conrad, voted for the deficit commission.

And they said be careful. Don't start the serious spending cuts, the deficit reduction until we're clearly out of the recession in 2013. Maybe it will be sooner. But that warning is something we shouldn't forget.

We learned in history with President Franklin Roosevelt that after the Great Depression when they started to hit the deficit breaks too soon, they went in a double dip recession and higher unemployment. Excuse me. We've got to get beyond that. We've got to make sure this economy is growing with more jobs and more business success.

WALLACE: Well, I mean, I want to pick up on that because I asked Senator McConnell about your comment -- let's not hit the deficit break too soon. Does that mean -- and it's clear that the Republicans when the continuing resolution for government funding runs out on March 4th, that they're going to come up with a big, and I think a tough package of spending cuts. Does that mean that Democrats, like yourself, will oppose them?

DURBIN: It depends on how deeply they cut and what they cut. Remember, we not only have stimulus package when President Obama was elected, we just passed another stimulus package a few weeks ago that added to the deficit as well. That stimulus package was the extension of tax cuts, across the board, the extension of unemployment benefits. It means that less money will come in to Washington. More money will be circulating in the economy.

So, I think that we tried to be sensitive with President Obama's leadership to really looking at the long-term. Let's get America's economy strong and moving forward. And we can and we must deal with this deficit.

WALLACE: Would you -- and obviously, you wouldn't decide this by yourself. But your personal opinion, would you be willing to shut down the government rather than to accept a steep and what you felt were overly draconian Republican spending cuts?

DURBIN: Absolutely not. And let me tell you something. We remember Speaker Gingrich 16 years ago shutting down the government, a confrontation with President Clinton, which backfired on Speaker Gingrich and really caused some problems across America.

Speaker John Boehner is much more responsible. He said let's look at the debt ceiling like adults. And that's a quote.

He's right. We don't want to risk foreclosure on the full faith and credit of the United States of America. It would be disastrous. China, our major creditor, is re in a position where tomorrow, if they've announced that they've lost confidence in the dollar and the American economy, it would have a devastating impact on people across America, businesses, homeowners, people who rely on interest rates in terms of their own daily activities.

So, I understand that we need to be serious about the deficit, but we don't need to play any kind of brinksmanship or doomsday scenario when it comes to the debt ceiling.

WALLACE: Senator, you say you need to be serious about the deficit. Give me an example. What specific program cuts will Democrats propose to get serious about the deficit?

DURBIN: Dust off that deficit commission report, the president's deficit commission. Take a look at some of the things that we address there.

First, $3 in spending cuts for every dollar in new revenue. So, it was serious when it came to cutting spending. You must do that.

Secondly, when it came to revenue, take a look at the tax code. Chris, in all the time I've been in Washington, we never put the tax code on the table and said, does it still make sense? All the deductions, all the credits, all the tax earmarks -- do they make sense?

They cost us $1.1 trillion each year. All of the tax code deductions, taking money out of the treasury, equal the personal income taxes collected in America.

Why don't we have that conversation? The deficit commission thinks we should. And I agree.

WALLACE: And, of course, the deficit commission, and as you say, you voted for the Bowles-Simpson plan, also called for raising retirement age far off in 2075. But you stand by all of that and you would support all of that?

DURBIN: There were some parts of it that I, of course, would change. I don't agree with every paragraph. But, you know, I was around in 1983 when Social Security was facing bankruptcy.

On a bipartisan basis, we bought how many years? Almost 50 years of longevity in Social Security, because we finally said for goodness sakes, this isn't about sound bites. This is about Social Security. Get it right. And we did it.

We can do it again. The deficit commission -- Chris, you referred to one aspect of it. Raising the retirement age by one year, from '67 to '68, over 40-year period of time -- what it means is that any person in America over the age of 28 today, would not see any change in social security. That is not an unreasonable approach.

WALLACE: As you heard in my discussion, Senator McConnell vows, he is going to bring a repeal of health care reform to the Senate floor.

First question: can you stop him? And beyond that, how much do you think that Republicans in the House and the Senate will be able to chip away at health care reform over the next two years?

DURBIN: I think we should revisit our laws and revisiting the health care reform law is not unreasonable. I happen to agree.

Let me be really bipartisan about this. I happen to agree with Senator McConnell that the revenue portion, the 1099 portion that he referred to, needs to be changed. It's unreasonable. It goes too far.

But here are the numbers that people should remember. There are 47 Republicans, 53 Democrats. It takes 51 for a majority. And I think there's a serious question whether Senator McConnell can find four Democrats to join him in repeal. I certainly don't believe he's going to find anywhere near 60, which is probably going to be the vote required to repeal health care reform.

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WALLACE: If I may, sir -- I just want to make sure I'm clear. You don't have a problem with allowing a vote on the floor to repeal health care reform?

DURBIN: Harry Reid has said we're not going to bring up repeal of health care reform. Now, if some Republican senator wants to offer it as an amendment at some point, it's possible they will. It's possible we'll face that vote.

But having spoken to my members in the Democratic Caucus, with Senator Reid, we feel there's still strong support for health care reform.

Let me remind the people who are listening, the Congressional Budget Office told us that health care reform reduces our deficit. So, when Senator McConnell says repeal it, he is adding over $200 billion, maybe $300 billion more to the deficit.

WALLACE: Wait -- Senator, I know they said that. But the fact is they said that based on the assumptions that were built in that they had to accept -- I mean, there's a half a trillion dollars in Medicare cuts and a lot of people have questions as to whether you're actually ever going to do that.

DURBIN: Well, I think we need to find ways to reduce overspending when it comes to health care programs. What I'd say to Senator McConnell and the Republicans, if you're really serious about deficits, sit down with people, the staff at the deficit commission and they're going to tell you the number one driver in terms of deficits in America is the cost of health care. And if we walk away from health care reform, which is providing security and freedom to a lot of Americans when it comes to buying health insurance, and we say we're not going to deal with this issue, it will aggravate the situation and add to our deficit.

WALLACE: Senator, I got a minute left and I got two questions. I'm going to ask you to answer quickly.

First of all, as we discussed in the first segment, two senators on the Democratic side, Conrad of North Dakota, Lieberman of Connecticut, have both said that they're going to retire. You are already defending 23 seats; the Republicans only 10.

Aren't you in real danger of losing the Senate?

DURBIN: No. Let me tell you. I think the world changes. The election that we're going to face in 2012 is going to be a lot different than the last election. I can't tell you exactly how different. But we've got Patty Murray, who's running the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee. We have a complete commitment of the Senate Democratic Caucus for our incumbents and the challengers who will go against the Republicans. We're in a solid position.

WALLACE: And, finally, who are you sitting with on Tuesday night and on which side of the aisle?

DURBIN: My new Senate Republican colleague from Illinois, Mark Kirk, and I are going to sit together. I'm bringing the popcorn. He's bringing a Coke with two straws. We're -- just kidding, of course. We haven't decided which side we'll sit on but we are going to sit together.

WALLACE: And, very briefly, what do you think of this idea?

DURBIN: I like this idea. But before we close, I've got to say four words to you, Chris. "Bear down, Chicago Bears." This is our day, buddy. And we're looking forward to big victory at Soldier Field.

WALLACE: I just want to say that, as FOX News is fair and balanced in all areas, we take no sides in the Bears-Packers game, Senator.

DURBIN: Thanks, Chris.

WALLACE: Thanks so much for coming in. Thanks for talking with us. And please come back, sir.

DURBIN: I will.

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