MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW (D), MICHIGAN: Well, Chris, I think you"re absolutely right. And I find it amazing that after over a year of Republicans saying that it"s such a national emergency to have the deficit we have, that the first thing they want to do is increase the deficit by $700 billion to give an extra tax cut to millionaires and billionaires, and at the same time say no to people who are out of work.

You know, this week, starting Wednesday, we will begin to see 142,000 people in Michigan who are out of work through no fault of their own--they"re going to begin to lose their benefits, people who, at this point, are using those benefits just to keep a roof over their head and food on the table for their families.

So, this is an outrage. And, boy, if there ever was a difference in who we"re fighting for, this is it.

MATTHEWS: Senator Whitehouse, it seems to me there"s a bit of an ideological here, not just a class fight, if you will. The Republicans, at least the ideologues, like Senator Kyl of Arizona, are arguing the case that giving people extended unemployment benefits encourages them to slough off, not to go looking for a job. That"s what he"s saying.

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE ( R) RHODE ISLAND: That"s the argument, but in Michigan and in Rhode Island, that argument is clearly nonsense, because there are an awful lot more people running around looking for jobs than there are jobs.

There are 65,000 people unemployed, just by the government statistics, in Rhode Island. There are not 65,000 jobs out there waiting for those people. So, the argument is nonsense. And the economics of it are lousy.

The very best thing that you can do to revive this economy, the most efficient way to spend money to revive this economy is to put it in the hands of the unemployed. It"s a 2-1 immediate rebound for the economy.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

WHITEHOUSE: It"s literally the best way to do it.

And, finally, you have got the simple fairness argument. I mean, here are people--it"s their last support. These families are getting desperate. And you kick away the very last income that they have, and they"re really destitute, and it"s a tragedy.

On the other hand, what we would be doing is asking the wealthiest Americans to go back to the tax payments that they were making under the Clinton administration, when the economy booming, and everybody looks back at that as the good days.

STABENOW: Right.

MATTHEWS: Well, we couldn"t get any Republican people on from the Congress tonight. We are going to keep trying to get them on to make their case in this regard.

But, Senator Stabenow, here is the problem. Is there going to be a deal here? And it seems to me the Republicans would love a deal. They have got their tax cuts for the rich. And then they could say don"t blame us for the unemployed not getting their benefits, because we said OK to that.

Wouldn"t you be letting them off the hook with some simple quid pro quo here?

STABENOW: Well, I think so.

I"m certainly not one that believes that we should extend an economic policy of extra tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires that hasn"t created jobs for 10 years. You know, Chris, if that policy had created jobs, I would be all for it.

But we have lost hundreds of thousands jobs in Michigan under a policy for 10 years of giving tax cuts to the very rich and hoping it trickled down--that trickles down to everybody else.

I mean, we want and I strongly support tax cuts for the middle class, for small businesses, helping people who are out of work when there"s five people looking for every one job that"s available.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

STABENOW: And in my judgment, we need to stand firm on that and make it clear that we"re not going to be held hostage. We"re not going to let them hold middle-class families and small businesses hostage or people who are out of work hostage to give an extra tax cut that adds $700 billion to the national debt for the few wealthiest Americans.

MATTHEWS: What do you think, Senator Whitehouse, a guy up in Rhode, Rhode Island, a working-class guy, would say if you said to him, you can get your unemployment benefits if the rich get their tax cuts? Would he say forget it about it or would he say, yes, I guess you have to cut a deal with the wrong guys? Or what would he say? How do you speak for a person like that?

(CROSSTALK)

WHITEHOUSE: If it comes down to keeping these people with body and soul together with their last remaining shred of income and with no jobs around them, I think that has to be our first priority.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You mean you would give away the tax cut to get that?

(CROSSTALK)

WHITEHOUSE: If we"re clear about this choice, I don"t think we have to, because I think Americans get this.

STABENOW: Right.

WHITEHOUSE: You asked earlier the question, how can we lose this one? I think the only way we could lose this one is by not being clear and not being solid together. And if we start to wobble, then I think, you know, that"s how we lose it.

But if the White House stands firm and if we stand firm, I think we can do what is right for people who are unemployed through no fault of their own and protect our debt and our deficit levels from having to borrow more money from China to fund huge tax cuts for the very wealthiest Americans.

MATTHEWS: Let"s take a look at Senator Kyl, a Republican, on this issue. He was on "Meet the Press" yesterday defending the Bush tax cuts. He says they aren"t a tax cut. Listen to the way he argues this. Let"s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "MEET THE PRESS")

SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ), MINORITY WHIP: Nobody is talking about tax cuts. We have had the rates in existence now for 10 years. All Republicans are saying is, keep them in place. Don"t raise taxes on anyone. And so our position is, let"s extend all of the current rates for some period of time. Obviously, we would like to do it permanently, but if it"s three or four years, that"s fine, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, catch the logic. Here he is, the same senator who said the tax cuts are not tax cuts, even though they were sunsetted back when they were passed, here he is in March saying extending unemployment benefits don"t create jobs. He"s knocking the benefits. Here he is. Let"s listen.

Here it is: "In fact, if anything, continuing to pay people unemployment compensation is a disincentive for them to seek new work."

There you have your argument, Senator Whitehouse. There you have your classic Republican conservative argument, that unemployment benefits encourages laziness, it encourages sloth, it encourages not looking for jobs, whereas tax cuts for the rich are really not tax cuts, because all they do is continue the beneficence of George W. Bush.

STABENOW: You know, Chris, if I could jump in here and just say...

MATTHEWS: Sure.

STABENOW: ... I would invite Senator Kyl to come to Michigan and talk to the 50-year-old person who"s never been out of work in his entire life who now finds himself in a spot where he is just barely holding on, and in a economy where there aren"t more jobs is trying to figure out what in the world he"s going to do.

A lot of folks are trying to go back to school. They"re trying to have a second career in their 50s or early 60s. But this is a very difficult situation that is going on. And, frankly, if the tax policy that he"s talked about had worked for the last 10 years, we would be creating jobs.

But it hasn"t worked. My question to him is, where are the jobs? It hasn"t worked.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

STABENOW: It added to the deficit, but it certainly hasn"t created jobs.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, thank you so much.

WHITEHOUSE: The job growth was in the Clinton years under the taxes, before George Bush did these cuts. That"s when the real job growth was. That"s when the economy was booming.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

WHITEHOUSE: And that"s what the Republicans apparently are afraid of going back to.

MATTHEWS: Well, it seems to me that Jon Kyl, now opposing the New START treaty, trying to screw up our relations with Russia, trying to defend tax cuts for the rich by saying they"re not tax cuts, by knocking unemployment benefits for people who are hard-up, seems to be running for Dr. Evil this Christmas.

Anyway, thank you very much for joining us, Debbie Stabenow, the senator from Michigan, and Sheldon Whitehouse, the senator from Rhode Island.

Up next: The man responsible for giving us Sarah Palin as our almost famous person is now comparing her to one of the greatest figures in Republican history, John McCain dancing with the one he brung--his effusive praise for his one-time running mate next in the "Sideshow."

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