MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

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REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, I think this is time for the president to go right to the American people, who vote for these members of the Senate, and tell the American people that he wants to deliver on a tax cut for the middle class.

I think the dynamic has to change, Chris. We"re clearly in a game-changing environment. After this election, the president is in a campaign mode. He has to be faced with the consequences of, if he doesn"t get help, he needs to go to the American people and say he wants their help and he wants them to contact their senators to support his efforts to bring the middle class a tax cut.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Cohen, what would you do? What do you think he should do? He does have this dilemma facing him in the next couple weeks.

REP. STEVE COHEN (D), TENNESSEE: I think he"s got to play hardball. I think he"s got to just say that we want to give tax cuts to the middle class, the 98 percent, where we will stimulate the economy, and the other 2 percent continues to contribute to the deficit and doesn"t help with the economy.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COHEN: And I think he just has to say it and talk--maybe just go to Maine. He just needs a couple of votes, and he can get them in Maine and Massachusetts.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, he needs--he could get a couple there. He could some perhaps in Ohio from Voinovich.

The question is, what does he do? Do you believe that--you, first, Congressman Cohen, on--this time. Do you think he has the clout to do what Roosevelt couldn"t do, which is to nail somebody in their district and really make them switch? Do you believe that"s possible he could get some Republicans?

COHEN: I think it"s possible. When he talks 98 percent of the American public has got their tax cuts, and you"re looking at the richest 2 percent, I think he can make the case.

And this is a Democratic stand that he needs to take. And, if he doesn"t, the Bush tax cuts are an anthem for Democrats and to capitulate to that, there"s no difference in the parties.

I got an e-mail today, and it was about Afghanistan and Iraq. And this fellow said he"s always a Democrat, but he"s not voting for Barack and he"s not voting for Steve if we"re still in Afghanistan, if we"re still committing in wars.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: OK.

Let"s go--I understand that point of view. Let me--let me go back to Congressman Kucinich on this question. Maybe you don"t to give away the play right now. But it comes down to mid-December. It"s coming up on Christmastime and the holidays, and the president can"t spring those Republicans.

Does he sign the bill or not? Does he just accept the fact they knew they had the won, or is he just go over Christmas and the holidays and say, I don"t care what the Republicans do when they get control of the House, no Democratic House is going to agree with this? Does he win that argument if he goes that far, not letting people have their tax cuts through Christmas?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: I think that he has to fight on this, and I think the American people appreciate to see Barack Obama the fighter, who we saw in 2008 election, the Barack Obama who when he was sworn in, who literally had lightening in a bottle. There"s a magic moment.

We can recapture that moment, but he"s going to need some forward momentum. We"ll support him in the House. And if he takes that forward to the American people and says, this is something I"m digging in on, this is what I want for you the middle class--and I think that will make the difference.

MATTHEWS: So Truman, not Clinton. Don"t compromise, fight it.

KUCINICH: Right. That"s right. That"s right.

MATTHEWS: Do you agree with that, Congressman Cohen?

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: This is a litmus test. This is a litmus test.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let"s go to a--let"s go to a hot issue with not just the gay community in the country and those who are close to them, but the whole question of progressives and where they stand on equal treatment towards an open service in the military. The commission"s going to come out with this report at the end of this month. We"re going to know probably that the military supports ending "don"t ask, don"t tell."

Can the president put enough pressure on the senators, again, to get to 60 he needs to get this thing approved, the change in the law? Congressman Cohen first.

COHEN: Well, if it"s attached to the defense appropriations and I think he can get it through with the defense appropriations--particularly if there are earmarks there that are important to people"s districts. Barry Goldwater was for ending "don"t ask, don"t tell" and the conservatives ought to be able to rally at least to be as liberal as Barry Goldwater.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Kucinich, do you think he can win on "don"t ask, don"t tell"? Now, this is a weird one because the military to the Joint Chiefs supports change. Gates says it"s better that the Congress do it than the courts. It"s more reasonable to do it that way. It"s a smoother way to do it.

But the marines at the top seem to be very much against this. Is this going to be a position that they can hold? Can they hold that position?

KUCINICH: I think that the president can set a tone here of basic fairness. If somebody serving our country, that"s a sacred obligation that they give and a duty to the country, we owe them then a duty to make sure that they"re treated like any other American and not have to be given a second class citizenship.

So, I think this is something, again, that"s worth fighting for and the president will have support in the House as he has had support in the House on this. And I think that we see the change happening in the military. That"s a good thing. It may not be happening in all the service, but I think that when everyone who serves his country knows that when somebody puts on a uniform of a country and serves proudly, that they ought to be given full rights in a democratic society.

MATTHEWS: Congressman Cohen, you think times have changed enough since the time that Bill Clinton came in and put this up front or allowed it to become a top issue? Does he get humiliated by the center and the right on this issue like Clinton was where Clinton really took the strong stand then had to buckle? Is it--have times changed enough on this issue that he can he say I"m for getting rid of "don"t ask, don"t tell," for total open service of gay people in the military, period, and I don"t mind who doesn"t like it?

COHEN: I think times have changed. And I think the fact is: the president has to realize when he runs for re-election, he"s going to have to have his base and he"s not going to get the Republicans and he"s not going to get those people who are against these types of things, as the people who are against gays in the military, by and large, they"re against health care and they"re against all the progress that we"ve made in this country, so much of the progress and they scream socialism when they don"t even know what socialism is.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COHEN: The president needs to support the people who have supported him, get his 50 percent and just show some results with his action and show change.

MATTHEWS: You both make a good case. I like your case. I think you"re right. Harry Truman may be making a comeback here.

Thank you so much, Congressman Kucinich and Congressman Cohen.

KUCINICH: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Thanks for coming on. Have a happy Thanksgiving both of you, gentlemen.

COHEN: Thank you, Chris.

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