Hearing of the Senate Armed Services Committee - The Army Inspector General's Report on the Abuse in Abu Ghraib Prison

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HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE

SUBJECT: THE ARMY INSPECTOR GENERAL'S REPORT ON THE ABUSE IN ABU GHRAIB PRISON AND DETENTION OPERATIONS DOCTRINE AND TRAINING

CHAIRED BY: SENATOR JOHN WARNER (R-VA)

WITNESSES: LES BROWNLEE, ACTING SECRETARY OF THE ARMY; GENERAL PETER SCHOOMAKER, CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE ARMY; LIEUTENANT GENERAL PAUL MIKOLASHEK, INSPECTOR GENERAL OF THE ARMY

LOCATION: 106 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BODY:
SEN. JACK REED (D-RI): General Mikolashek, Secretary Rumsfeld has acknowledged that he ordered an individual in Iraq, a detainee, to be hidden. General Taguba in his report indicated they observed on several occasions individuals who were being hidden from the International Committee of the Red Cross. There seems to be a pattern. Did you examine this issue?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Sir, we looked at detainee accountability. We asked questions about so-called ghost detainees. During the conduct of our inspection, we found no evidence of the so-called ghost detainees that were in existence.

However, we did find that our processes for accounting for detainees based on the volume and the number of them, the automated processes we have, the administration of those, are overwhelmed. The systems are complicated. They don't interact. So it is certainly --

SEN. REED: Well, let me understand your response, General. There is no today ghost detainees that you found.

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: That we have found during our inspection, no, sir.

SEN. REED: But are you disputing General Taguba and the secretary of Defense?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: No, sir, I'm not.

SEN. REED: But you chose not to look into how that happened?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: We did not go back and do a post mortem on that particular issue.

SEN. REED: So how can you conclude today that there's been no systemic problems with respect to the treatment of detainees in Iraq?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Well, again, we looked during our inspection whether those people existed. And we could find no evidence at the time that those --

SEN. REED: But there is evidence that they did exist. There is evidence that that is contrary to our obligations under the Geneva Convention. And there's certainly a suggestion that if an order was given by the secretary of Defense, it had to be transmitted through the chain of command, which would include higher-ranking officers. And you looked at none of that?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: No, sir, we did not look at that detail into that specific line on that particular issue. We looked at, again, how we accounted for and took care of the detainees.

SEN. REED: Well, General, I just think the premise of your report that there's been no systemic problems is undercut by the fact that you didn't look at some systematic problems. That was one.

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Well, we viewed the system as accountability of detainees, sir. And that was our approach.

SEN. REED: Well, let me go back to another situation; that is the command climate that existed, not just as you inspected but prior to the inspection. Did you indicate or did you ask people about what policies -- (inaudible) -- were in effect? Was there any condoning of this or any encouragement?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Sir, we-again, as we looked at all the abuse cases-and I think your question gets right at the Abu Ghraib case in particular, and that was just one of many-we did talk to the soldiers who were not necessarily involved in the criminal side of that investigation. In terms of leadership and command climate, it did present some problems.

In terms of an environment that would condone this kind of behavior in an overt way, we did not see that, but probably in an omissive sense.

SEN. REED: And how far did you go up the chain of command in your climate survey?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Sir, our climate survey we really focused on the soldier level.

SEN. REED: So you can't offer a conclusion with respect to anything above the battalion or brigade headquarters with respect to-you didn't look at that? Is that correct?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: No, sir. In terms of command climate, in terms-I'm not sure-I mean, the soldiers participate in the survey, and they gave us a lot of feedback on the command climate across the board, because these surveys went throughout the population, and not again focused on an individual unit, but our look at that one particular case, interviews with soldiers who had redeployed, it was a less than ideal command climate.

SEN. WARNER: Excuse me, senator. I understood you to say in your opening comment that you inspection went up to the major-general level.

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: We did. We interviewed them, but they did not necessarily participate in a command climate type survey or --

SEN. REED: Did you follow up in the results of the survey which suggested a very poor climate, however you define it, with high- ranking officers at the major-general level and above?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: I'm not sure I understand your question, sir. I mean --

SEN. REED: Well, the finding is that there's a poor climate, presumptively in the situation where orders about treatment, record- keeping, all of this-soldiers are telling you, We just didn't get the direction. No one cared about it-which suggests I think to you as a professional officer there's a real problem here.

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Right.

SEN. REED: Did you pursue that problem?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: How far up the deck though is your question. Yes, sir, we-that probably extended up to the brigade level.

SEN. REED: And you went-did you go beyond the brigade level?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: No, sir, because we think it ended there. That's about where-that's where the problem was and the solution --

SEN. REED: I think you're defining the investigation to limit the investigation. I find that to be unsatisfactory. Let me-one other systemic issue I think is the responsiveness of the chain of command at the highest levels to reports of abuse. I think you'd agree that is a systematic issue. Last fall, in October I believe, the ICRC gave a report to General Sanchez's headquarters which suggested in very detailed terms that there were abuses, blatant abuses-naked prisoners, prisoners being abused, prisoners' physical marks-not-well, I don't have to go any further. Did you look into whether that complaint was responded to effectively by General Sanchez and his chain of command?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: No, sir, we did not follow that thread from the ICRC reports. We did know that the command was concerned about treatment of the detainees, and hence Miller and Ryder reports that investigate-or inspections, visits, were called for. But, again, when those ICRC reports were made available, we did not go back and do the postmortem as part of this inspection. But I know that there are others that are looking at that.

SEN. WARNER: I'd put a word of caution in there. The committee is guarding meticulously the material of the ICRC. It is classified. It has been made available by the Department of Defense. So in your colloquy-you go ahead and continue your question, senator.

SEN. REED: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a public report from the ICRC which was placed on the web by somebody, which we've had access to for years. And any questions about the report I can refer back to that report.

Just a final sort of comment. It seems to me, general, that it's very difficult to reach the conclusion you have that there was no systematic problems in the treatment of detainees. You have not looked seriously at the post-detainee situation. You haven't looked at the response of the chain of command to evident, explicit reports of abuse. And it seems to me that this is just again reinforcing the conclusion that there are five or six aberrant soldiers. And I don't think you've done the job that you have to do. Maybe you were told not to do it, but I don't think you've done --

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Oh, no, sir. We were clearly not told to --

MR. BROWNLEE: May I respond, sir? May I respond?

SEN. WARNER: I think it's an important question. Take such time as you need yourself, Mr. Secretary, and the general, because he is raising an issue that is of concern to a number of senators, and that is the level of accountability, whether or not it is confined to the soldier level or goes on up. It's clear in your opening statement that you interrogated general officers at the rank of two stars. Am I not correct in that?

GEN. MIKOLASHEK: Sir, I would say we interviewed rather than interrogated.

SEN. WARNER: Let's check the dictionary, but anyway.

MR. BROWNLEE: Yes, sir.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

SEN. REED: Mr. Chairman, if I may?

SEN. WARNER: Yes, I'll give you adequate opportunity before this hearing is concluded.

SEN. REED: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.