MSNBC "Hardball with Chris Matthews" - Transcript

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REP. BARBARA LEE (D), CALIFORNIA: I certainly hope so, Chris, because, remember, nine years ago, when we went into Afghanistan, the president then was given authority to wage what I considered then an endless war, and I did not vote for that resolution.

But the American people were told that we were going into Afghanistan to capture Osama bin Laden and to stop bin Laden--and to stop al Qaeda--excuse me. This is now the longest war in American history. The American people are war-weary, Chris. We need to develop an exit strategy, a plan, and a timeline to begin to safely redeploy our young men and women out of Afghanistan.

I did not support the July timetable, because, when you look at what is happening in Afghanistan, it"s not getting any better, Chris. Our young men and women are exercising their job in a brilliant way. They"re doing everything we"re asking them to do.

As a daughter of a military officer, I know the sacrifices that they"re making and that their families are making.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

LEE: And so it"s time that we have clarity, and that"s why many members of Congress are beginning to have the debates that we should have had nine years ago.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let"s go to Congresswoman Pingree.
I know Maine is a tough state. It"s a very independent-minded state. It"s not left. It"s not right. I worked for Ed Muskie for years. I know that territory.

They"re--they must be getting pretty skeptical about whether we can win anything. Karzai is a crook. He stole the election. Karzai is in bed with the Indians. The Pakistanis don"t trust him. I mean, I went through the whole list Friday night. There"s just nothing good to say about this situation. Is it--aren"t we being blindsided? Aren"t--isn"t Karzai going to cut a deal around our back, when we"re still fighting? What is going on with him?

REP. CHELLIE PINGREE (D), MAINE: Oh, first, let me say thank you for mentioning Maine and our great hero, Mr. Muskie. I am glad to know that you have involvement with him in the past.

But you"re right. This is a corrupt government. And people are increasingly getting discouraged. Congresswoman Lee has been fighting on this issue for a long time. I"m a freshman member of Congress. And I ran against the war in, as you said, a Republican and Democratic state where, frankly, independents rule.

People are concerned with the loss of lives, and people are concerned with the fact that this now costs us $7 billion a month. Our strategy isn"t working. That was clear when General McChrystal had to resign and some of the things that we learned there.

But the fact is, people are increasingly concerned about this. We"re not making progress. And I think the congresswoman is right.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

PINGREE: We have to have a lively debate here in Congress before we approve more money for the president.

MATTHEWS: George Packer is a great writer. He"s over there in -- over there for "The New Yorker."

Let"s look at what he wrote--quote--"Obama is trapped, not by his generals, but by the war itself. It takes great political courage to face such a situation honestly. But, if in a year"s time, the war looks much the way it does now, or worse, Obama will have to face the public, force the public to deal with the likely reality, Americans leaving, however slowly, Afghanistan slipping into ethnic civil war, Pakistan backing the Pashtun side, al Qaeda seizing the chance to expand it safe haven."

My question, Congresswoman Lee--and I"m sure it"s on your mind as well--whenever we leave, what assurance do we have that al Qaeda won"t come back into that country? And, by the way, that"s an open-ended question. It may mean we leave right now. It may mean we leave in 20 years or we never leave.

But do we have any assurance, no matter when we leave, that al Qaeda won"t come back right where it was before we got there? Do we?

LEE: Chris, first of all, I think you remember General Jones indicated that al Qaeda really is not in Afghanistan. There are less than 100 al Qaeda members in Afghanistan.

MATTHEWS: Yes, we kicked them out.

LEE: Al Qaeda is in Somalia. Al Qaeda, though, is in Somalia. Al Qaeda is in Yemen. Al Qaeda is throughout the world. This--this organization is viral. You know, we have to understand how to address terrorism in a real way, because, in fact, we cannot allow our national security to be at risk. I believe, like many believe, that by militarily occupying a country, we create more danger, more terrorists, and our security is not what it should be. We become less secure when you occupy a country.

We have to do this differently. The president indicated early on that he was going to come up with a review in December, and then in July, he was going to begin a drawdown.

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: I know.

LEE: I think it should have been much earlier. But let me tell you, I think the longer we stay there, if it gets better, they"re going to come back and ask for more money. So, to create a longer time frame--

MATTHEWS: I agree with you.

LEE: And if it gets worse, they"re going to ask for more money also. It"s an endless--
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MATTHEWS: You didn"t answer my question. Won"t al Qaeda come right back there? Sebastian Junger, who"s an expert over there, he said they"ll come right back in where they were before. They don"t like it in the mountains of Pakistan. They loved it when they had the whole country to themselves.

What"s to stop al Qaeda from using the same base they used to attack us on 9/11? What"s to stop them once we leave? Is there an answer to that question?

LEE: Chris, let me say, first of all, we know that if we don"t leave, our young men and women continue to be in harm"s way. Al Qaeda, as I said, is gullible. Al Qaeda is in Somalia, and I"ll say this again, in Yemen.

So, we have to come up and our military experts have to help us develop a strategy that ensures our national security, that ensures that al Qaeda is addressed and dealt with the way nine years ago the American people thought we were going to deal with.

This is a war that cannot go on forever and ever. The resolution, again, that I voted against was a blank check. It gave President Bush and now any subsequent president the authority to continue to use force --

MATTHEWS: I know. I agree with all of this.

LEE: And so, let me say, our military experts have to help us come up with a strategy to knock al Qaeda out and to ensure our national security. And that is the bottom line. That"s what the president said he was going to do.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

LEE: It"s about our own national security, Chris.

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LEE: We have to have a timetable, Chris. We have to make sure that our young men and women--some have served one, two, three, four tours of duty. We have to have clarity. We have to have a timetable.
Again, the president committed to December for a review. He committed to July to begin to end this.

MATTHEWS: Right.

LEE: Again, personally, we should end it quicker than that. But I think we have to have clarity from the White House. That"s why many members of Congress wrote a letter, and we"re going to standby that and continue with this debate that should have been done nine years ago.

MATTHEWS: I like your letter. Congresswoman Pingree, I like your letter. I think it asks for clarity. Do you think you"ll get it?

PINGREE: I don"t know if we"ll be successful this time. But we have to continue to have this debate. We have to attempt to stop the funding for continuing the war.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

PINGREE: You know, we"re not succeeding, as Congresswoman Lee said, this has gone on longer than any other war and we"re not being successful.

MATTHEWS: Well, I think you"re doing a good job here. Thank you very much, Congresswoman Chellie Pingree and Congresswoman Barbara Lee.

PINGREE: Thank you.

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