MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

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MATTHEWS: And with us now is Republican senator Susan Collins of Maine, who"s on Homeland Security. Senator, thank you for joining us. Attorney General Eric Holder wrote in a letter today to you and some other Republican senators, quote, "Since the September 11, 2000 (SIC), attacks, the practice of the U.S. government, followed by prior and current administrations without a single exception, has been to arrest and detain under federal criminal law all terrorist suspects who were apprehended inside the United States. The prior administrations adopted policies expressly endorsing this approach."

How can you deny that the--this administration is doing something wrong, if it is doing something exactly the way the previous one did? Your thoughts, Senator?

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS ®, MAINE: Well, Chris, first of all, that would imply that I agreed with the previous administration"s handling of some of these terrorists.

It is ironic, to say the least, to have the Obama administration now saying, "We"re just following what the George Bush administration did," when they have been saying that everything the previous administration has done was in error on most things.

But here"s my point. I believe that, before a decision is made on whether to detain a captured foreign terrorist in a military system or in our civilian courts, there should be consultation with the intelligence community.

And I know, from asking the question of the director of national intelligence, the secretary of homeland security, and the director of the National Counterterrorism Center, that they were not consulted before Abdulmutallab was told that he didn"t have to answer further questions and given a lawyer, at our expense.

That simply does not make sense, given how critical it is that we secure as much information to try to prevent future attacks.

MATTHEWS: Well, here, I have a letter--and you have seen it--from

from the attorney general to you.

And he says--quote--"I made the decision to charge Mr. Abdulmutallab with federal crimes and to seek his detention in connection with those charges with the knowledge of and with no objection from all other relevant departments of the government." He goes on to say he checked with all the intelligence community and he got no objections about his course of action.

You say there was no consultation?

COLLINS: That is correct. And I would draw a distinction that it is far different to inform someone of a decision that"s already been made vs. consulting with them.

It is clear that Abdulmutallab had a great deal of information. He had just come from Yemen. We know that Yemen is a hotbed for al Qaeda. We know that plots are being hatched against this country.

And what we had was a very brief interrogation, followed by five to six weeks during which time al Qaeda is not just twiddling its thumbs in Yemen. It is changing its plots. It is moving around. It is swapping out its communications equipment.

That was valuable lost time. And we could have learned information that might have been extremely valuable to helping to thwart future attacks.

MATTHEWS: OK. OK. I"m open to your argument, as most Americans are. We"re in a quandary on this. What is the best way to get information when we need it?

What would you do with the Fort Hood situation, where you have an American involved with apparently being influenced somewhat by a lackey over there on the Internet and having some communication with a foreign enemy of the United States?

At what point does a person become a foreign agent? Was Lee Harvey Oswald an agent of Castro, but he killed Kennedy because he love Castro? Was Sirhan Sirhan working for a Middle East government or terrorist group when he killed Bobby Kennedy?

At what point do you deny a person his rights in this country because you believe they are under the leadership or influence of a foreign enemy? Where do you decide?

COLLINS: Well, first of all, anyone put into our civilian courts has the same rights as an American citizen.

So, that is why that initial threshold decision is so important. It is ironic, because, in the case of the Fort Hood massacre, Major Hasan is going to go through the military system, a military court-martial. He"s not going to be in a...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COLLINS: ... the civilian court system, because he"s a member of the Army.

It seems to me, if that is good enough for Major Hasan, it ought to have been good enough for Abdulmutallab.

MATTHEWS: Well, how do you decide that someone is an agent of a foreign power or an enemy combatant? I mean, I went through the cases of our assassins in this country who were clearly operating out of loyalty to foreign masters, even if they didn"t get direct orders.

I mean, everybody knows Lee Harvey Oswald was working for Castro--or was in love with Castro, that Sirhan Sirhan hated Bobby Kennedy"s Middle East policy. They were operating as agents, even if they weren"t.

Where do you draw the line and say, that guy really is an agent, or that person really is not? How do you know?

COLLINS: That"s why you can"t have a unilateral decision made by the Department of Justice, which is what you had in this case.

Clearly, the Justice Department is a critical player, but so is the director of national intelligence, Homeland Security, the Counterterrorism Center, the CIA, the secretary of defense.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

COLLINS: So, what you do is a consultation...

MATTHEWS: Yes, I see.

COLLINS: ... with all those parties, so you find out, what information do they have in intelligence files that might well affect the decision on where the person should be detained and questioned and also tried?

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, they are very good arguments. And thank you very much for bringing them to us, Senator Susan Collins of Maine, a member of the Homeland Security Committee.

Thank you so much. I think your arguments are winning with a lot of people.

Up next: Former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer went on "The Colbert Report" last night, because, as Colbert pointed out, it"s not right he really has to worry about being humiliated these days. He"s already been there. This is fascinating to watch these two go at each other. It"s going to be on a minute. That is next.

You"re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

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