MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript
Interview
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We start tonight with this cranky, clanky conduct in the United States Senate on health care. Senator Bernie Sanders is an independent from Vermont. Senator Sanders, what do you make of the Republican Party this year and the way they"ve chosen to use their prerogatives?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT), BUDGET COMMITTEE: I think it"s really sad. You know, these guys had eight years to do something about health care, and under their watch, under Bush"s watch, seven million more people lost their health insurance and premiums soared, all right? They did nothing when they had control. And now, because some of us are trying to go forward and make sure that 30 million more people have insurance--we"ve got some insurance reform, disease prevention, community health centers--they"re obstructing in a way that nobody has seen around here in decades.
I introduced a Medicare-for-all single-payer bill. It was going to lose, Chris, maybe five votes, maybe ten votes. They wanted to read 700 pages of that bill and just obstruct any kind of progress that we"re making.
MATTHEWS: Knowing that that was a long shot to begin with, just to raise hell, just to have fun?
SANDERS: Right. Absolutely. Well, also to make sure that we slow down things. They have broken the all-time world"s record for filibusters, as well as for other dilatory practices. It"s never been done the way they have done it. And it"s very clear they"ve got nothing to offer, and then what they want to say--if they prevent Obama or the Democratic leadership from accomplishing anything, then they"ll go to the public and say, What did these guys accomplish?
MATTHEWS: Yes.
SANDERS: That"s very clearly what their purpose is, and I think it"s pretty pathetic. And your point is right, you know, Tip O"Neill worked with Reagan. Reagan won the election. Well, these guys don"t like it. Obama won the election. Work with him.
MATTHEWS: OK, let"s listen to one of your Democratic colleagues from Rhode Island. This is Sheldon Whitehouse on Sunday. I think he makes a somewhat different point, but it makes the same sort of bottom line. Let"s listen.
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SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: The birthers, the fanatics, the people running around in right-wing militias and Aryan support groups--it is unbearable to them that President Barack Obama should exist.
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MATTHEWS: How much of that is that deep-seated ideology, almost nativist--maybe it is nativist--ideology on the far right that"s energizing this obstructionism? What do you think is the connection?
SANDERS: Well, there"s no question that you have a very strong, extreme right-wing effort in this country that, to the degree that they"re, quote, unquote, "birthers," they don"t believe that Obama even should be in the White House. And it is very clear to me that that base is doing everything they can to make sure that Obama does not succeed. And I think that that is really a bad news situation for this country.
Look, in terms of this health care bill, Chris, I"m not going to tell you it"s the greatest thing in the world. I believe in a Medicare-for-all single-payer bill. A lot in this bill--I think we should have a strong public option. There are other components of this bill that I don"t like.
But you know what? At the end of the day, just doing community health care centers, you"re going to have 25 million more people who have access to primary health care...
MATTHEWS: Yes.
SANDERS: ... 20,000 new primary health care doctors and dentists that we desperately need, 30 million more people getting insurance, all right? It is not the end of the world. We"ve got to--the day after this is passed, we"ve got to improve it. But to simply try to kill this bill and leave 45,000 people every single year dying, that to me is just not acceptable.
MATTHEWS: Let"s take a listen to another one of your colleagues. This is Max Baucus, the chairman of the Finance Committee, late this afternoon. Senator, I want you to respond to what you hear on this tape.
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SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D-MT), FINANCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: It is disrespectful, it is unseemly for senators in this body to invoke the names of Ted Kennedy and Jack Kennedy in opposition to this bill. It is disrespectful and unseemly. And I frankly am very much surprised that senators would go to that level and try and invoke the names of Ted Kennedy and Jack Kennedy to--in opposition to this legislation.
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MATTHEWS: I"ve heard, Senator, that Republican leadership is trolling around, their whips are looking for a Democrat who will be a, quote, "profile in courage," close quote, and obstruct the bill at the very end. Have you heard that story?
SANDERS: Yes, but they ain"t going to find it. In fact, in the Democratic cloakroom, there is a photograph of Kennedy saying, "Let"s get it done."
MATTHEWS: Wow.
SANDERS: Ted Kennedy--you know that. Ted Kennedy more than any
person in our lifetimes has been a fighter for universal health care. Very
he developed this community health center concept that we"re expanding right now. So to use Ted Kennedy against this bill when he was the chairman of the Health, Education Committee that helped develop this legislation, that"s an oxymoron. That is just really not a good thing to do.
MATTHEWS: Well, to reach back to one of our heroes from the past, from the "60s, Saul Alinsky once said that even though both sides have flaws in their arguments and you can always find something nuanced about your own side you don"t like and it"s never perfect, you have to act in the end like there"s simple black and white clarity between your side and the other side or you don"t get anything done. I always try to remind myself of Saul Alinsky when I get confused.
But congratulations to you, sir. You weren"t confused in these last couple days. Thank you some much for...
SANDERS: Thanks very much, Chris.
MATTHEWS: Have a happy holiday season.
SANDERS: You, too.
MATTHEWS: ... for the rest of the next couple weeks. Anyway, Senator Sanders, thank you.
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