MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript

Interview

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If you do that, you only need 51 votes to pass it, which exist in the Senate, instead of 60, just a simple majority. That‘s how most democracies work. That‘s what we should have done in the beginning. And that‘s what Democrats ought to do right now.

Joining us now is independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. He‘s a member of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.

Senator Sanders, thanks for joining us tonight.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Good to be with you, Howard.

DEAN: It seems clear to me that if these four senators are to be believed, the Senate can‘t pass a strong public option. So, I guess, I‘m going to first ask you, would you support the use of reconciliation to fix this?

SANDERS: Absolutely. That is one of the real options that we have.

Look, the facts are clear. The overwhelming majority of the American people want a public option. They want a choice other than a private health insurance company whose function in life is to rip them off and to make as much money as possible. The president wants it. The House of Representatives want that. The majority of the Senate wants it.

And I think it is wrong it took a handful of conservative Democrats and all of the Republicans are stopping that. So, reconciliation is certainly one opportunity and vehicle that we have.

DEAN: Bernie, you said this week that you would not vote for a bill that doesn‘t have a strong public option. Are there other Democratic senators who would join you in voting against a bill without a real public option?

SANDERS: I believe that there are. And it‘s important that we do this, Howard, because, I think, you‘ve made this point. If you do not provide competition to the private insurance companies, what is going to stop them from raising their rates outrageously and costing the federal government huge sums of money? What mechanism is in this bill for cost-containment? And I don‘t see it, frankly.

So, I think, we have to got remain strong for a public option, go to a reconciliation method, that‘s another way, or maybe scale down what we are trying to do and see if we can get 60 votes. And that would mean a significant expansion of Medicaid, a real focus on primary health care and the growth of community health centers and primary health care doctors. We can do prescription drug reform; stop the situation where we are paying the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs, the re-importation; negotiating with the drug companies on Medicare Part D; and insurance reform as well.

So, maybe we can get a consensus at 60 votes for a scaled down approach.

DEAN: In terms of insurance reform, specifically the bill, the current bill still allows insurance companies to gouge their customers charging them up to 300 percent more than their neighbor is charged. As you know in Vermont, we limit that to 20 percent above the cheapest rate, and that really works.

Is that going to be the kind of thing that could be addressed during the amendment process? And what do you know about that?

SANDERS: Absolutely. It is one of the things that should be addressed. It‘s just not fair.

What you‘re saying is, yes, you could prohibit--you can prohibit pre-existing conditions, but rates can be risen substantially and people would not be able to afford the insurance in any case. That is obviously an issue that should be dealt with. We‘re going to be introducing at least a dozen amendments myself and I think many other senators will have their amendments.

DEAN: So, Bernie, the Democratic Caucus has two independent senators in it, you and Joe Lieberman. Do you think you can convince your fellow independent that he ought to be supporting a real public option and real health care reform?

SANDERS: Probably not. I think that responsibility will rest with Senator Reid and millions of Americans who want real health care reform.

DEAN: Senate Republicans have vowed to launch what they call a "holy war" on health care reform. They have already promised to use every delaying tactic in the book, which is a very long book, of Senate rules.

How do you stop them from watering the bill down any further? And how can we get a real bill out after we‘ve come so far? This is the farthest we‘ve come in 60 years.

SANDERS: Well, Howard, you know, I think it is really an outrage. After eight years of Bush, where nothing was done while health care was deteriorating in America, 70 million lost their health insurance. Premiums almost doubled under Bush‘s years--Bush‘s eight years. They did virtually nothing, nothing.

And now that Obama and some of us are trying to do something, the best they can do is play the obstructionist role and trying to kill this bill. That‘s wrong. And it‘s really a sad day for America. They should join us for real cost-effective, universal, comprehensive health care. And it‘s a sad day for our democracy when these guys are AWOL on this important issue.

DEAN: If I were you, on your end of this question, I might not answer, but I‘m going to answer it anyway. Give a percentage. How optimistic are you that we are actually going to get a real health care bill with real public option through the Senate, through the House and signed by the president?

SANDERS: I don‘t know what--you know, if it will be scaled down or what. I think something will be passed. My view is it is better to have something that is strong and good and cost-effective than a bailout to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars to the private insurance companies who could raise their rates at any point.

So, at the end of the day, do I think we‘ll have something? Yes, I do. What it will be? Too early to say.

DEAN: Independent Senator Bernie Sanders from Vermont, thank you so much for your time.

SANDERS: Good to be with you, Howard.

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