CBS "Face The Nation" - Transcript

Interview

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ANNOUNCER: FACE THE NATION with CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob
Schieffer. And now from CBS News in Washington, Bob Schieffer.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And good morning again. Joining us now in the studio Senator Chuck
Schumer, Democrat from New York, and Senator Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona. If there were
two key players in this leading up to the Senate deciding to debate this whole health care issue
it is-- it is you two. So I'd just like to get your reaction, Senator Schumer, on what happened last night.

SENATOR CHARLES SCHUMER (D-New York/Finance Committee): Well, I thought last night
was a very good night for us. Look, there are still many bumps in the road, discussions,
arguments, disagreements. But I think now the wind is at our back. There's real momentum.
And the good news here is we still have a very diverse caucus, but every Democrat, from the
most liberal to the most conservative, very much wants to get a bill.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And on the other side every Republican from the most liberal to the most
conservative voted against it.

SENATOR JON KYL (R-Arizona/Assistant Republican Leader): And-- and the reason is
because, ordinarily, when you do start debate on a bill like this it ends up passing. And most of
our constituents are saying you need to do everything you can to stop it. And the best way to
stop it is not to start it but rather to go back and start over again with more Republican ideas in
the legislation than is currently the case. So that's why you had every single Republican saying
no, not this.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Orrin Hatch said the Republicans will launch a holy war of delaying. Is that
going to happen?

SENATOR JON KYL: Well, first of all, the American people by public opinion surveys have
made it very clear they want this whole thing aired out. They would rather have us do it right
than do it quickly. We've had so many deadlines--it has to be done before August, it has to be done before October, and so on. And now the President says he's got to have it by the end of
the year. The reality is this is a huge issue affecting every American. And we do need to do it
right. And the object is not to delay for delay's sake but rather to have an opportunity for
everyone to see what's in it, to understand it, to know how much it costs, and to know how it's
going to impact their lives.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Senator Schumer, there are at least three or four Democrats right now and--
and maybe more who have real problems with this bill. Senator Lincoln from Arkansas said
yesterday don't think that I'm for this bill as it now stands just because I'm voting to go ahead
with debate. Senator Landrieu from Louisiana, what now, a hundred million dollars in federal
funds had to be channeled to Louisiana. They're calling it the-- the Louisiana Purchase in order
to get her vote to begin debate. You've got some real problems here.

SENATOR CHARLES SCHUMER: Well, look, we are a diverse caucus. And when we become
sixty members we get members from red states. But what we've shown is unity throughout.
Every time there's a major challenge the caucus comes together for the good of the nation. Our
belief is two-fold. One, we believe we have debated this a long time. It's been debated in
America for the last decade and a half. But in terms of legislative deliberations the Health
Committee began, that's the Health Care Committee, began in May. The Finance Committee,
on which Jon and I sit had extensive hearings all through the spring. This has been debated for a long, long time. And now the time is to act. And frankly, you know, there are a lot of people on the other side of the aisle who don't want health care. They haven't put together an alternative proposal that's out there on the web the way our proposal is. And I think what Orrin Hatch said is right, it's a dilatory tactics.

BOB SCHIEFFER: But what about this idea that it takes a hundred million dollars in federal
funds channeled to one state to get-- I mean, should that be added to the cost of the health care bill?

SENATOR CHARLES SCHUMER: Well-- well, no-- Mary Landrieu is a very good legislator and
she does two things very well. One, she delivers the goods for Louisiana. She has constantly.
And I think the people of Louisiana respect her for it. But second, she has real views on health
care. And those are taken into account as well. One of the issues that she's pushed very hard is
foster children because she has great experience with them and health care for foster children.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, what about that Senator Kyl, what about this idea of funneling all this
money? I mean, how much is this going to cost in the end? Do you think there are any
Republicans here? I mean, what-- what would Republicans charge to get--

SENATOR JON KYL: Well, you-- you-- you haven't heard Republicans saying here is my-- my
price. That's the problem when you have to get sixty and people in your caucus have severe
reservations about the bill. In order to get every single vote sometimes you do resort to things
that appeal to a particular senator, or in the case of the House, to a particular representative.
The American people don't like that when they see it. It should be on the merits. And when
these senators, for example, say we'll-- we'll vote to start the bill but that doesn't guarantee our
vote at the end, the pressure at the end of the process is enormous. And the real question ought to be are you representing the will of your constituents? Incidentally, all of the public opinion polls show the American people don't want this. In fact, Gallup just came out with a poll that showed independents oppose it by better than two to one. So do you abide by the wishes of your constituents or succumb to the dictates of your leaders?

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, now is that exactly right because I've seen polls that show a majority
do want health care--

SENATOR JON KYL (overlapping): Yes.

BOB SCHIEFFER: --some don't want the public option, some don't want this or that. But to say
that the majority are against it is that accurate?

SENATOR JON KYL: I can cite ten polls that the majority in every one of them oppose this
health care legislation. When you say health care, of course, we all support health care. The
question is do you support this legislation or would you be more likely to vote against a senator
who supports it than not. And that-- that was the exact question in that Gallup poll.

SENATOR CHARLES SCHUMER: Well, the polling is all over the lot. I can cite ten polls on the
other side. I think we have to do what's right. And what's right is this: The health care system if
left on its own is crashing. Medicare will be broke in seven years. It's running out of money
because it's just so expensive. And for those who argue, oh, that's the government at work,
because Medicare is a government program, and I always find it an irony my Republican
colleagues are against government programs but love Medicare. But at the same time the
private sector costs double every six years. And what's going to happen, Bob, over the next five
or six years there's tens of millions of Americans will be told by their employers that they can no
longer afford health care for them. So we have to get this in line. And the goal of our bill above all is this: we try to get rid of the waste, the fraud, the abuse, the duplication, the inefficiency. Every individual has experienced that. You get a bill back from your hospital and you say what was this? What are they charging me this much for that? I didn't even see that person there. So we all know there's a ton of that kind of waste--fraud, abuse, inefficiency in the system. And we're trying to get at that so that we can preserve Medicare, so that we can preserve private insurance basically as it is. And we know all the providers don't like it, because sometimes their axis will be gored if they're doing the waste, fraud, abuse, and inefficiency.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me just ask Senator Kyl about the-- the most controversial part of this.
And that is the so-called public option which would be a government insurance program like
Medicare for-- for-- for younger people. Why are you so opposed to that, Senator?

SENATOR JON KYL: Well, there-- there are several reasons. Incidentally, I was going to quote
from the Congressional Budget Office letter that points out that the expenditures here are going
to increase not decrease. So it's not as if we're actually cutting the costs of these government
programs like Medicare. But in any event, the government-run program is objectionable for two
primary reasons. First of all, a lot of people will acknowledge, even members of Congress that it
is the first in a two-step process to get to a single payer system. And there are people on the left in this country who support that, most people do not. And this is seen as the way to get there. And how-- how do you get there? As Senator Schumer just mentioned, you get a lot of people that have policies today with their employer. And according to the Lewin and Associates study, eighty-eight million of those people will drop the coverage with the employer or be dropped because the employer can't-- it will be cheaper for him to dump them into the government-run program, put it that way, eighty-eight million people. And, that then brings up the second point. If you like your insurance you get to keep it. No, not true. You have your insurance with our employer and he says it's cheaper for me to send you to the government plan than it is for me to continue to provide it, you don't get to keep your policy anymore. Now you're in the government-run system. So, that-- that's the other objectionable feature. In addition of which there are a lot of costs associated with it and dictates from the federal government as to what is covered and what is not.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Let me answer that. First the Lewin study, which Jon cites is
widely discredited for one good reason--they're fully funded by United Health, a health insurer.
So, it's hard--

SENATOR JON KYL (overlapping): It doesn't mean they're wrong.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: In this case they're very wrong. CBO says our plan, a more
modest public option, they'll be four to six million people and they're not funded by anybody.
They're impartial and we both go by their readings. Here's the reason we need a public option.
And we do, we very much do. The insurance industry is about the most highly concentrated
industry in the country. In many states eighty-one percent of the insurance is by one company.
In forty states two companies dominate. When there is no competition or very little competition, every economist left, right and center will tell you, the costs go way up. And that's what's happened here. So you need to inject some competition into the insurance industry. The best way to do that is a public option. And the program that we've put together is set up by the government, but then it's on its own. There is no intent for it to compete unfairly against private insurance. Some of the original plans were. The House plan at the beginning I would admit it was. But I came up with the idea and the HELP Committee adopted it as well of a level playing field public option. It gets an infusion of dollars from the federal government at first. It has to pay it back like it is a loan over a period of time. Then it has to meet the same rules, requirements, regulations, reserves as any private insurer. Now I believe a public option will work better. Why?

BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): Well, let me ask you this. Can you get enough Democrats?
Can you get sixty votes to vote for a public option, because right now independent Democrat
Joe Lieberman says, look, no health care reform is better than health care reform with a public
option in it. Senator Lincoln has a real problem with that. Senator Landrieu already has said she
has a problem. Ben Nelson says he has a problem. I'm just talking about Democrats. Can you--
is it possible to find some way to get those Democrats to vote for this?

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: I believe we can. And here's why--two reasons. First, as I said
this is a modest public option. Many of those folks when-- when I spoke to them over the course of the last several months their great was Jon's fear that this would transmogrify into a
government plan and would knock out everybody else. And by the way, the people from private
insurance, in reference to what Jon said, are not allowed to go into the exchange where the
public option is. So they can't. And so, the bottom line is though it is not, it is a level playing
field. And then what we will say to the people from the more red conservative states, your state
doesn't have to take it. But don't make it so that my state, which would like a public option can't take it. And the opt-out works. And I think at the end of the day, everyone is going to be
together. And I think the proposal that Leader Reed wisely put into his bill, which is a moderate,
modest proposal, sort of in the middle of public option land--there are some on the left who don't like it, they want it to be liberal, some on the right-- will at the end of the day be where we end up.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.

SENATOR JON KYL: If you want it today you can do it today. Maine has a public option--
Massachusetts has-- has the ultimate public option. Massachusetts has the second highest
premiums in the country. Turns out public option doesn't drive premiums down. Maine is having
problems as Senator Susan Collins, the former insurance commissioner from Maine has-- has
pointed out. If a state wants to go that route they can do it today, but it's not advisable. And, you know, to think that you can be both a competitor and the umpire and you're not going to have the advantage is.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER (overlapping): No, they're not the umpire.

SENATOR JON KYL: is-- is-- is-- is--well, the government is the umpire.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: No.

SENATOR JON KYL: I-- I--Chuck, please don't interrupt me here. I've read good portions of this
bill. The government makes decisions. And I think there are over three thousand times where in the legislation it says "shall." The secretary of Health and Human Services has tremendous power under this legislation. And as a result a lot of people fear that when the government is
both the competitor and the umpire obviously they win. The final point on the public option: There are a lot of states where there aren't enough people either in terms of a risk pool or in terms of the network of physicians and hospitals to put together a lot of different competing plans.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Is this plan--

SENATOR JON KYL: You-- you don't help that by adding one more plan.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Can I just say.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Are people going to pay more taxes because of this?

SENATOR JON KYL: Yes.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: No.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Yes. No.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Right, let me say this first on the public option. First, yeah
someone makes the rules. But under our plan, unlike what was feared before, the same rules
apply to private insurance and to the public option. In other words, we say to private insurance,
you have to have reserves in case you go bankrupt so your policy holders are still there. Same
with the public option--we say that you cannot cut people off when they pay too much. When they, you know, when their insurance-- when their health care bills go up too much, same at the other. So it's a level playing field public option. And it is not-- one does not have an advantage over the other. It just creates good old-fashioned American competition.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me just ask you this senator, obviously the wealthier people are going to
pay more taxes.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Yes.

BOB SCHIEFFER: But aren't people down the line going to have to pay more taxes as well?

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER (overlapping): No.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Isn't this going to cost you more?

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: That's what we have focused on, particularly in the Finance
Committee bill and then in the bill that Leader Reed put together, which I think has the best of
the health bill and the finance bill, and that's why I believe it's going to pass the Senate with
sixty votes, maybe sixty-one, sixty-two, who knows? And the reason is we focus mainly on
cutting the waste, inefficiency, duplication--the run-away costs.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: Yeah, are there as few taxes on Botox and things like that?
Yes. A small increase in the Medicare rate, but only for people above two hundred fifty thousand.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We're out of time here, senator.

SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER: The average citizen, no taxes.

BOB SCHIEFFER: I'll give you thirty seconds to response.

SENATOR JON KYL: If you have insurance you get taxed. If you don't have insurance you get
taxed. If you need a life-saving medical device like a stent or a diabetic pump you get taxed.
Pharmaceutical. The Congressional Budget Office says and the Joint Tax Committee says that
these taxes imposed on others will be passed through. And why does the letter from the CBO
say it's going to cost between five and ten billion dollars for the IRS? Because the IRS has to
enforce these taxes provisions.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right, we have to end it there. Thank you all both for a very enlightening
discussion. Back in one minute.

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