CNN "State Of The Union With John King" - Transcript

Interview

CNN "State Of The Union With John King" - Transcript

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KING: Labor Day weekend means more than the final days of the Minnesota state fair and summer vacation. Congress is coming back from an August break, defined by feisty health care town halls, and President Obama faces a decisive test. Support for his reform ideas is slipping, and the president is betting on a speech Wednesday to a joint session of Congress to reframe the health care fight more to his liking.

Mr. Obama's biggest challenge is bridging differences in his own Democratic Party over how much the government can afford, how best to reduce the costs, and whether there must be a so-called public or government-run insurance option. As the president is fond of saying, if it were easy, someone would have already done it.

But what must he do now? We begin with two Democratic senators who want big changes, but don't always see eye to eye. Minnesota's Amy Klobuchar is here with me at the state fair, and Ben Nelson of Nebraska joins us from Omaha. Senator Klobuchar, let me start with you. A big speech from the president. What is the one thing you need to hear from him to convince you he has the momentum and the initiative back? KLOBUCHAR: I believe, after spending many days here at the state fair, the Minnesota state fair, the mother of all town hall meetings, people everywhere wanting to talk to you -- people really want to see a focus on affordability and cost. That seems to me what brings people together across party lines and emphasis on how can we make this more affordable. They realized, and I think times have changed over August, things have calmed a teenie bit, and people have started to step back and say, you know what? I know that my premiums have doubled in the last 10 years, and I have every reason to believe they're going to double again and that's what the numbers show. If you're a senior, going to be a senior by 2017, Medicare is going in the red. So this focus on costs, accountability, on doing something, getting something done, that's what I'd like him to talk about.

KING: And Senator Nelson, the White House says the president will be more specific. You know the big flashpoints in this debate. What is the one specific where you think the president needs to say, this is the way I need it to be? I'm the president of the United States. This is what we're going to do?

NELSON: Well, I think he has to say if there's going to be a public option, it has to be subject to a trigger. In other words, if somehow the private market doesn't respond the way that it's supposed to, then it would trigger a public option or a government-run option, but only as a fail/safe backstop to the process.

And when I say trigger, you know, out here in Nebraska, in the Midwest, I don't mean a hair trigger. I mean a true trigger, one that would only apply if there isn't the kind of competition in the business that we believe there would be.

KING: Are you ready to accept that, Senator Klobuchar, a three, maybe a five-year period where you see if the private market responds, and then a public option would kick in only if you don't get more access, more affordability, more competition?

KLOBUCHAR: You know, I'd want to see what those triggers are, what the benchmarks are. Because when I get around our state, talk to, like, a small business, a backpack company up in Two Harbors, a guy there owns a company, $24,000 a year he's paying for his family of four, and he says he wouldn't even have started the company 15 years ago if he knew that.

So what I want to see is something where small businesses, self- employed, small businesses are paying 20 percent more than people who work at big corporations, that they have a chance to buy into something. And certainly it's worth looking at, but we have to push competition. We have to do a better job of putting some rules on the insurance companies.

I got involved in this when I got kicked out of the hospital when my daughter was born. She was incredibly sick, couldn't swallow, and I got kicked out in 24 hours. And I went to the legislature with other moms and got one of the first state laws passed guaranteeing new moms and their babies a 48-hour hospital stay. We know we need new rules, so that when your kid gets sick, you don't get cut out of your health care. When you leave a job, you're still able to access health care. So I think a combination of pushing on with some competition, whether it's some kind of a public option, or any kind of a push, and also have those kinds of rules. We need to do something, and that's a consensus I see developing.

KING: In the Senate, Senator Nelson, Max Baucus, the chairman of the Finance Committee, has been trying for months to come up with a bipartisan approach. He has been calling moderate and conservative Democrats. I understand you're one of the Democrats he has called recently. Has he convinced you that he has a plan that not only can pass the Senate but pass the Senate with bipartisan support?

NELSON: No, he doesn't have a consensus at this point in time. I think he still remains optimistic, and is going to wait and see what the president has to say Wednesday night. That might break the logjam and bring some Republicans on.

I know that Senator Grassley seems to be concerned that only three Republicans is not bipartisan enough for him. So perhaps with the right combination of ideas and a trigger and things like that, others might join in the process.

KING: Is that enough for you? The question is, do you do this with 55 or 60, and maybe should the president slow down, or do you do this with 50 and the Democrats use their muscle, 50, 51 votes and go through?

KLOBUCHAR: You know, I'd like to see us at 60. I'd like to see some bipartisan support for this bill.

KING: Is there any possibility of that?

KLOBUCHAR: I do. Olympia Snowe is still hanging in there. She understands how important this issue is for the people of Maine. You see some of the Republican senators coming back, like Senator Corker, saying we hope we can find some common ground. So I do think that it is a possibility.

The problem with going down to 50 is we just have more limited tools in terms of getting the kind of work that needs to get done to help people. The one thing I'd focus on here is just the affordability of care.

You're right in Minnesota, John, home of the Mayo Clinic. A national study came out saying if all the hospitals in the country just followed the protocol that the Mayo uses for chronically ill patients, just on that population we'd save $50 billion every five years in taxpayer Medicare money, with some of the highest quality care in the country. So putting those kinds of incentives in place and getting a comprehensive plan is where we have to go, and that's why getting to that 60 votes would be much more helpful to get the broad support.

KING: Does it have to be a sweeping plan... NELSON: Can I add one thing, John?

KING: ... Senator Nelson -- or should -- please, jump in, sir.

NELSON: I was just going to say, if I might add one thing about that 50 votes, that reconciliation process. People in Nebraska are already concerned that we've been rushing things through, and if we went to some sort of a parliamentary shortcut, I think they would be even more alarmed than they are right now. That's what I heard during the town hall meetings.

KING: Well, then help me out on that point, then. Should the president then drop the idea of having sweeping reform in one bill and go with a more incremental approach and have the people prove, even here at the state fair, Democrats are saying I'm worried about the deficit, I'm worried, can we afford this with 10 percent unemployment and record deficits. Should the president's message be, let's do this in incremental steps and we will prove to you that we will bend the health care cost curve and then do more sweeping things, or is the White House right in saying that you've got to do it all at once?

NELSON: I think that's the appropriate approach. I thought all along that we need to do it in a more incremental fashion. There are things we can do with prevention and wellness, increasing the workforce, coming up with the idea of an exchange, where people can check out rates and there would be more competition available, and people would be aware of it. So there are a number of things to bend the cost curve. Wellness programs would be a part of that, as well as improving the quality of care, moving away from the quantity of care. These are things that can be done.

KING: I want to show you both some things I picked up here at the state fair. These are from the Republican Party here. You have a button here that says, "Change? I'd like mine back." This one, "hands off my health care."

To oppose something is pretty easy. To sell something hard is much more difficult. As the president goes before the Congress Wednesday night, Senator Klobuchar, to you first, does he have a policy problem or a marketing problem?

KLOBUCHAR: First of all, I think it's a great opportunity as I look at the pot roast booths behind you for him to put the meat on the bones, to really give the American people some details. Because when I look back at this debate, I think one of the issues was when it first came up, it came out as, oh, here is the big plan, you could get this, you could get this, you could get that. And Americans, still struggling with the economy, understandably, looking at some of the debt and deficits that we're facing said, wait a minute.

So I think it's very important that the president steps back and says, we have a problem here. A lot of people have good health care. A lot of people love their doctors, and we want to keep that. But the truth is, doubling of premiums in the next 10 years, just like you've seen in the last 10 years, Medicare going in the red by 2017, we have to work together to get this done, and I think that will help. In terms of policy, one of the good things about August and about these last few months is that members of Congress are engaged like never before, and the people of this country are engaged like never before. So the fact that some of these debates have been had, that options have been out there, that people have talked about things, can be a good thing.

I spent the last few weeks, my daughter was with me and she's reading "Tale of Two Cities" in preparation for high school, and she keeps quoting the first sentence, "it's the best of times and the worst of times, a time of great foolishness, a time of great wisdom." So I'm hoping for wisdom on Wednesday night.

KING: Senator Nelson, you were a governor before you came to the Senate. President Obama was a senator before he became the chief executive. Do you have any advice for him, anything he's done in this health care debate so far that you think, Mr. President, you got that one wrong, here's a bit of advice for you?

NELSON: Well, I don't know if it was gotten wrong, but I think they have an opportunity to grab the message now and perfect the message. I think if there's anything that has misinformed the American people, it's the message that didn't outline what the insured public will gain from this.

NELSON: In other words, it was inadequate in explaining to them that the costs are out of control, and that if the costs continue, as Amy has said, to go at the rate they have, then it becomes unsustainable for all of us to be able to cover ourselves with the rising health care costs.

So I think that's the message, to tell people who currently have coverage what's in it for them. What I found during the town halls is people wanted us to do nothing because they're afraid whatever we did, they'd be worse off.

They couldn't understand how they'd be better off. They were worried that something would be taken from them to be given to someone else. And you can't really straighten that out unless the message improves on how cost containment, wellness programs, prevention, all the things that can be done, will benefit them in the short term, but particularly in the long term.

KING: All right. We'll have more with senators Nelson and Klobuchar in just a moment, we'll ask them whether more U.S. troops in Afghanistan is the answer and whether the government is ready for a potential H1N1 flu pandemic. Stay with us.

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KING: The AARP booth here at the Minnesota State Fair, taking a kernel poll. There is the Republican booth there, "Waiting in Line for Obamacare." Health care a big issue here at the Minnesota State Fair, and we're back with Senator Amy Klobuchar and with us from Nebraska is Senator Ben Nelson, two Democrats. I want to move to another issue, because also an issue here at the fair is the H1N1 flu virus. There have been some 4-H students who were sent home from here because they had confirmed cases, others suspected.

To you, Senator Klobuchar, first. Are you confident that the administration has a plan in place to deal with this as America goes back to school?

KLOBUCHAR: They do have a plan, but everyone knows that there is going to be challenges. And I think they've been good about getting out front on those challenges. The fact that the regular flu vaccine is more targeted to seniors and others. The fact that the new H1N1 vaccine really has to go first to kids and to pregnant women. So those -- I talked to some of our health officials in smaller counties, with their education challenges ahead, but I think the administration has made that very clear and has been clear in their message so that the minute the vaccine comes out, people are starting to understand who gets it first. And they're really pushing the regular flu vaccine right now, which I think is also smart.

KING: And, Governor Nelson, from your perspective in a rural state -- and we should note to our viewers you're holding a telephone up because we're having some issues with your audio, if they haven't figured that out already.

Does it concern you that this vaccine won't be ready until mid- October at the earliest, and we're already seeing an uptick in cases across the country?

NELSON: Well, obviously you'd like to have it in advance, but it's a major challenge to get the plan put in place because we're not really certain what is going to happen. These flu viruses change as they go along. What was happening in the spring, not happening the same in the fall.

But I think the administration is taking the right steps. I think we'll be in a position to do everything that we can do. But obviously everyone would have liked to have seen it just a little bit earlier.

KING: And, Senator Nelson, let me stick with you on this point. Another difficult issue facing the president is the question, after already having sent more troops into Afghanistan, his commanding general there believes he needs still more. Do you believe that more troops should go to Afghanistan and do you believe that the president has a clear mission and an exit strategy?

NELSON: Well, I don't know about the mission and the exit strategy, but we are going to have the benchmarks that I've been pushing for some time as part of the Armed Services Committee. We're going to have those available rather shortly, because we do have to know what the mission is.

We have to be able to measure or progress, or lack of progress towards that mission, and we have to determine what it is that we're trying to do with the Taliban, and make the country not another platform for the al Qaeda staging platform for their goals, which are detrimental to the rest of the world.

So these benchmarks I think will be very helpful in understanding what we need to do and how we're doing, trying to get that. Now, Admiral Mullen is coming in to see me this week and you can only imagine what my first question is, why do we need more troops, and how do those troops fit in with the benchmarks that are about to come out.

KING: And so, Senator Klobuchar, here at the state fair and in your travels, do the American people want more troops sent to Afghanistan? Do they think it's worth it? KLOBUCHAR: Well, our focus right here in this state is of so many National Guard and Reserve, Minnesotans serving over there. We've lost a number of brave soldiers just in the last month, so they understand the challenges.

At the same time they know that it has been a mess there for a long time. The previous administration was so singularly focused on Iraq that I think things were left to decay in Afghanistan.

So the president is really changing that policy with a new general, General McChrystal. And I think we need to give him a chance to do his work. You've got a country where people are throwing acid in faces of little girls when they go to school, where they're trying to hold on to having a democratic election clearly with some problems.

And I think it's very important that we give General McChrystal a chance to change strategy there.

KING: Let's step back in closing, we have a minute -- a little more than a minute left. I want you to both assess the political moment more broadly. And I want to start by looking at the president's handling of big issues, because his poll numbers have dropped dramatically.

If you ask the American people, do you approve of how the president is handling the economy, only 49 percent say yes. Health care down to 44 percent. The budget deficit, 36 percent.

And having -- looking at these numbers, you have Charlie Cook, who is a noted public pollster and campaign watcher, writes this: "Wave elections, more often than not, start like this, the president's ratings plummet, his party loses its advantage on the generic congressional ballot test, the intensity of opposition party vote skyrockets, his own party's voters become complacent or even depressed, and independent voters move lopsidedly away. These were the early warning signs of past wave elections. Seeing them now should terrify Democrats."

Senator Klobuchar, heading into 2010, are you terrified?

KLOBUCHAR: No, because, first of all, there is quite a bit of time before 2010. And what this president has said is, he's not going to put his head in the sand. These are major issues that have been left dormant, where no one has done one thing. These health premiums going up, doubling in just 10 years, and he's taking on major issues. I don't think it should be a surprise when we're talking about energy and trying to have more home-grown energy, be less reliant on foreign oil when you look at our health care that we're trying to get more affordable health care, that these are going to create major debates in this country and be somewhat polarizing.

It doesn't mean that there isn't time for people to come together on a solution.

KLOBUCHAR: But if he just had, you know, dealt with things in his place that he had to, pirates and other things, I'm sure his popularity might have been higher, but he decided to take on the issues, and Congress did, that our country has neglected for too long.

KING: All right. Senator Nelson, quickly on that point, should the Democrats be worried about what's going to happen next year?

NELSON: Well, with leadership goes responsibility. And the president is stepping up to the -- this effort. I think there's no question about it.

The economy is changing. I think it's improving. We're not talking about the "D" word, "depression," any longer. We're talking about and debating whether we're coming out of the recession.

Everyone is still concerned about unemployment numbers, but we understand they tend to lag.

When you look at health care, I think he's taking on a very difficult issue, trying to work with Congress, both houses, both parties, to find a solution.

And when it comes to the war, that's a -- that's a carryover from the last administration. I think he's trying to do everything he can there. There seems to be bipartisan support for those efforts that are under way.

So I think when you balance everything out, every era is different, and this one will be different than a previous wave era, where the kinds of things that Charlie's concerned about have happened. I don't -- I don't predict those things this time around.

KING: All right, Senator Nelson in Omaha, we thank you, sir, especially for dealing with the difficulties.

And, Senator Klobuchar, before we let you go, our next guest is your governor, Tim Pawlenty, here at the state fair. Here's one thing the Republicans are giving out.

KLOBUCHAR: Very nice.

KING: Thank you, Governor Pawlenty.

KLOBUCHAR: Oh, I'm sure he'll want me to wear that.

KING: I'm sure he would like you to wear that. KLOBUCHAR: Let me tell you this. I have for you chocolate covered bacon, one of our fair delicacies. I'd like you to eat it on the air.

KING: I'm not going to eat it on the air.

(LAUGHTER)

I can assure you I'm not going to eat it on the air.

(LAUGHTER)

But this is one of the many things we have here -- at least this is not on a stick -- chocolate covered bacon, at the Minnesota state fair, an argument for health care reform in its own rite, right there.

KING: Senator Amy Klobuchar...

KLOBUCHAR: Thank you for visiting.

KING: ... thank you so much for being here.

And up next, the Republican view on health care and other big issues from a governor many see as angling for the chance to evict Mr. Obama from the White House, Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, right here when "State of the Union" returns.

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