MSNBC "The Ed Show" - Transcript

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MSNBC "The Ed Show" - Transcript

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Joining me now is Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky of Illinois, a member of the House Intelligence Committee.

Congresswoman, good to have you with us tonight.

REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Thanks, Ed.

SCHULTZ: Does the country have an appetite for this at this point? We‘ve got the economy. We‘ve got health care reform. We‘ve got the Obama administration trying to get some things done. And now a five-year-old story is jumping out in front of the American people tonight.

Is this the right path for the country to take?

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, it‘s not really a question of appetite, it‘s a question of, what was really done and was it legal? And did it violate our own moral standing, as well as laws of the land?

I think it‘s very important to do this investigation. That doesn‘t mean that we can‘t do health care and every other thing as well, but we need to look into this.

SCHULTZ: Is it dangerous for the CIA? Could this do potential danger to the CIA? Because Leon Panetta has said if this goes too far, that he‘s going to resign.

What do you make of that?

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, look, we‘re not after necessarily—we understand that individual CIA employees do a fine job. The question is, did some people—for example, when you soak someone‘s hand in alcohol and light it on fire, is that an appropriate interrogation technique? Forcing a detainee to eat a baseball?

These are all reported by the Red Cross of things that actually happened. It‘s important to look into it.

But, you know, you made the point that, should we just go after the lower-level people? I think this investigation, even of those individuals, is important. It‘s not an either/or. But when they are defended, what are they going to say? I think what they‘ll say is that there was an atmosphere created by the highest level people at the Bush administration that said, those kinds of things are OK because anything goes.

I think that‘s the kind of environment in which these individuals were working, and it‘s important to hear that kind of testimony and get at that.

SCHULTZ: So, Congresswoman, how far do you want Eric Holder to go? Do you want him to go after Rumsfeld and Cheney? I mean, the whole lot of these guys? Is that what you want to see happen?

SCHAKOWSKY: What I want to see, that even as they—I think this is an important first step, because even as they go after these particular individuals—and by the way, I don‘t think that this was a matter of just a few individual rogue actors that were doing the wrong thing. I think what we will find is that there was this environment that said, look, you know, we‘re talking about terrorists here. Do whatever you have to do. Never mind that...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHULTZ: So, Congresswoman, do you think that these agents that did this were encouraged to break the law?

SCHAKOWSKY: I think what we might hear from them is that there was an attitude that, you know, do what you have to do. And I think that it is possible that it will implicate people higher up, as well as those individually.

But look, Ed, the question—go ahead.

SCHULTZ: Well, as you understand it, what‘s the next step?

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, this is going to be a preliminary investigation to decide whether or not the Justice Department will do a full-scale investigation of these people. But the question that you asked your viewers, should they prosecute these lower-level individuals? I really don‘t think it‘s an either/or situation.

If there were people on the ground who went beyond the letter of the law, even though there was some sort of a whisper in the air, I think that‘s important to note. But who was doing the whispering? Was there a feeling that, you know, nothing would happen to them?

SCHULTZ: Yes.

SCHAKOWSKY: That‘s what we need to know. Who did that?

SCHULTZ: Congresswoman Schakowsky, thanks for your time tonight. I appreciate it.

SCHAKOWSKY: Thank you.

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