MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" - Transcript

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

But we begin tonight with former Vice President Dick Cheney‘s attack on the Obama administration for investigating possible CIA abuse of prisoners.

Duncan Hunter is a former U.S. congressman, a former candidate for president, by the way, on the Republican side. He formally represented the state of California. He was succeeded by his son, who served in the military. And Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who is a member of the Judiciary Committee, she also joins us.

Mr. Hunter, thank for joining us.

DUNCAN HUNTER ®, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Sure.

MATTHEWS: Let‘s take a look at what former Vice President Dick Cheney said over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “FOX NEWS SUNDAY”)

RICHARD B. CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, you get a new administration. They say, well, we didn‘t like those opinions. We‘re going to go investigate those lawyers and perhaps have them disbarred.

I—I just think it‘s an outrageous precedent to set, to have this kind of—of, well, I think intensely partisan, politicized look back at the prior administration.

They‘re going to out and investigate the CIA personnel who carried out those investigations. I just—I think it‘s an outrageous political act that will do great damage long term to our capacity to be able to have people take on difficult jobs, make difficult decisions, without having to worry about what the next administration is going to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Mr. Hunter, do you share the vice president‘s argument that what Eric Holder, the attorney general, is doing in looking at possibly prosecuting these people as partisan in nature, in other words, an attempt to exploit the situation to help get votes in the next election, a partisan move for partisan purposes? That‘s what the vice president is accusing him of.

HUNTER: Yes, Chris, for this reason, that the initial scrub on these operations was made a couple of years ago.

One person was turned up as having violated the law, and that person

was punished. But, beyond that, what we‘re talking about is water-boarding

water-boarding. That‘s what—that‘s what the vice president is talking about. That‘s the enhanced interrogation techniques that the CIA used.

That‘s a technique where you make a—a terrorist feel or be afraid of the idea that he is going under water, when, in fact, you‘re not putting him under water, but it does scare the heck out of him. We water-boarded precisely three people. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the guy that killed 3,000 people in New York, was the prime guy who got water-boarded.

And—and we pulled—we scared him, because that‘s all water-boarding is. We scared him. We—we water-board, incidentally, hundreds of our own military personnel. They water-board themselves in training to toughen themselves up.

But we scared Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. When we scared him, he told us about three—three new plots that we didn‘t know about. One was to hit the Marines in North Africa. Another one was to hit the United States itself again a second time. And the last one was to hit the British at Heathrow Airport or another location.

So, Mohammed Sheikh—Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the guy who planned the attack that killed 3,000 New Yorkers, was scared. Now, at the same time, Mr. Obama‘s operatives here a few weeks ago shot three pirates through the head to save one hostage.

Now, if you—you can shoot three pirates through the head to shake one—or shoot them through the head to save one hostage, why can‘t you water-board the guy that killed 3,000 Americans to get information on new plans to hit this country?

MATTHEWS: Well, you‘re a military man. I don‘t have...

HUNTER: I think that‘s a question that liberals have to answer.

MATTHEWS: Well, I think we all have to answer, not just liberals.

What about the Geneva Conventions? And what about this technique they were using to click a gun next to somebody‘s head when he is blind—when he is blindfolded?

HUNTER: Yes.

MATTHEWS: They had a guy with a hood over his head, and they convinced him they were about to hit him with a buzz saw. They had one guy they threatened to rape his mother in front of him.

REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ (D), FLORIDA: How about threatening to kill his children?

MATTHEWS: One about all that stuff?

HUNTER: Yes, the Geneva—the Geneva Convention, first, if you look at the—the Geneva Convention was analyzed by the lawyers in place, and they came to the conclusion, especially about water-boarding, because that‘s the primary thing, that, since we do it to our own soldiers, by the hundreds, incidentally, and it doesn‘t hurt them, and they—and it makes them tougher, and it doesn‘t hurt anybody—Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gained weight after he was water-boarded—we decided that, since we do that to our own soldiers in training...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

HUNTER: ... we‘re not going to consider that torture.

Now—now, the question for liberals is, if you consider—consider that torture...

MATTHEWS: You know why we did that, though. I want to go on to the congresswoman.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: But wait just a second.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, look, you know why we did...

HUNTER: If you consider that torture...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, you‘re not putting the...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You‘re not being honest here, Congressman.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: ... then are we torturing our own soldiers?

MATTHEWS: We did that because the Chicoms—because the Chinese communists were doing it in Korea, so we did it to prepare our guys, G.I.s, in case they got picked up. You didn‘t give the context.

HUNTER: So, what‘s wrong with that? So, what‘s wrong with that?

MATTHEWS: Well, you never explained why we‘re doing it.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Because we believed the enemy was torturing out prisoners.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Baloney.

MATTHEWS: And we wanted to prepare them to be tortured. We didn‘t do it as part of their training. We said, this is what happens if you‘re...

HUNTER: Korea has been over for a—well, you‘re wrong about that, Chris.

Mr.—Senator Levin was very—I‘m sure, very shocked when he saw that we do it with our own folks. But the point is, if we do it, are we torturing American soldiers? You have to answer yes if you consider water-boarding to be torture.

Are we torturing our own soldiers? Answer the question.

MATTHEWS: We‘re preparing them to face torture.

HUNTER: No, we water-board them. We don‘t prepare them for water-boarding. We water-board them. Are we torturing our own soldiers?

MATTHEWS: Look, you‘re getting into a game here. Do you think it‘s within the bounds of the Geneva Convention...

HUNTER: Well, that‘s not a game. That‘s a—that‘s a reasonable question.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Is it within the bounds of the Geneva—is—is it torture? Is it torture?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: You know, I would love to jump in here.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: OK. You‘re in here. I‘m sorry. I‘m holding you off too long. You‘re a guest. Go to it...

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Look, I...

(LAUGHTER)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Thank you, Chris.

And I appreciate the opportunity to point out that it‘s unbelievably disingenuous of the former vice president, who was part of an administration who basically crafted an entire Justice—Department of Justice that was—that rose and fell on politics, to suggest that now the Obama administration and Attorney General Holder is pursuing this investigation based on politics.

At the end of the day, no one is above the law. John McCain, the Republican nominee for president, said that water-boarding is—is torture. The Geneva Convention says that water-boarding is torture. In addition to water-boarding...

HUNTER: No, it does not.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Excuse me. I -- I let you finish.

HUNTER: Geneva Convention does not say that.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Excuse me, Duncan, I let you finish.

The—the—the—in addition to water-boarding, we also subjected these prisoners—these prisoners to threatening to kill their children, using a drill next to them while they were blindfolded and naked.

And, look, at the end of the day, the heinous crimes that these people committed, I mean, no one feels a bit sorry for them. But when it comes to making sure that our—our prisoners and our detainees in other countries get the treatment that we want to make sure they get and that they are not tortured, we have to make sure that none of our lawyers who give advice to our interrogators, nor our—our interrogators, are above the law.

And we cannot continue the downward spiral of—of torture, and make that the—the policy of—and law and—and acceptable practice in—in this country. It‘s simply unacceptable.

And, with all due respect, Duncan, to say that those—those—that information that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed revealed as a result was a direct result of water-boarding, even Frances Townsend, the former director of the White House Office of Homeland Security, disagreed with that on TV this week, and said that you couldn‘t really make a direct connection that the vice president tried to make.

And, in fact, the FBI interrogator who questioned him before the CIA came in and water-boarded him and tortured—and used torture got information that was incredibly valuable in two days, instead...

HUNTER: Let—let me—let me answer that.

MATTHEWS: OK. Mr.—Mr.—Mr. Hunter, let me..

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... of the extremely lengthy period of time that they subjected...

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... where they got nothing.

HUNTER: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Mr. Hunter, I want you to listen to McCain here. Here‘s Senator McCain here. And then you react to that yourself.

HUNTER: OK.

MATTHEWS: Senator McCain on this issue.

HUNTER: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “FACE THE NATION”)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: I think that these interrogations, once publicized, helped al Qaeda recruit. I think that the ability of us to work with our allies was harmed.

And, so—and I believe that information, according to the FBI and others, could have been gained through other methods.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Mr. Hunter.

HUNTER: Yes. Yes.

Chris, if—if John McCain, my old friend, is suggesting that, if we had just talked nicely to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he would have told us about those plans to attack America, the Marine encampment at North Africa and Great Britain....

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Look, the proof is in the pudding.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Well, I got—I got—no, wait a second.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: I got. Now, let me finish.

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: They got valuable information within two days.

HUNTER: Let me finish. Let me finish.

I—we talked to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for a long time, and we water-boarded him on multiple occasions. Now, if talking nice to him would have elicited that information, I‘m sure that he would have put that off. But the real question for Debbie is this.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: But guess what? If I can jump in.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: But, Debbie, here‘s your...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... got that information before they water-boarded him.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: So, I‘m not sure here about the facts.

HUNTER: Let me...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Let me finish. Now, you gave a long...

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Duncan, they got valuable information from him when the...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Hey. Hey.

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... the FBI...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... let Mr. Hunter talk.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Mr. Hunter, you have got 15 to 30 seconds here. Go ahead.

HUNTER: OK. Let me talk.

Debbie, what you should really concentrate on is the fact that the Israelis use a much more stringent method of interrogation. I look forward to you asking for the Israeli prime minister to step down, because they do it. Do you think they should stop doing it to protect the country?

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: This is America. The last time I checked, this is the United States of America.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: So, you‘re not going to ask the Israeli leadership to step down?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Mr. Hunter, that is kind of ridiculous, the comparison.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: That‘s not ridiculous.

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: We‘re—we‘re talking about practices in the United States.

And the United States doesn‘t torture. No one is above the law, including Dick Cheney...

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... including the—the lawyers that—that he pushed to...

HUNTER: And water-boarding is not torture.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... to require—well, I—I think that—that, when the investigation is completed, it‘s quite possible that you will be proven wrong.

The FBI investigator that questioned him before the CIA stepped in and tortured him got more valuable information within a couple of days, as opposed to the weeks and weeks in which they got virtually nothing, that you can‘t even tie the information that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed gave to the CIA after they tortured him to those—those—those practices.

No one is above the law...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: So, the—so—OK. So, Debbie, so, Debbie, so the—so the—so the American SEALs torture...

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: We should not—we should not be spiraling ever downward.

HUNTER: So, the American SEALs torture themselves, the Air Force tortures itself, according to your definition that water-boarding is torture.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That‘s not torture. That‘s preparing...

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Give me a break.

HUNTER: And there‘s no problem with Israel doing very enhanced methods of interrogation.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That‘s preparing our troops.

MATTHEWS: OK. Congressman...

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That‘s preparing our troops.

MATTHEWS: ... even the most normal intelligence could help you with this. I don‘t know why you‘re not applying it, because you have it.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Obviously, the service people know they‘re in training.

They‘re not going to be killed.

HUNTER: Well...

MATTHEWS: That captured person who is one of our enemy has no idea what we‘re doing...

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: They‘re getting ready for what they might be subjected to in other countries.

MATTHEWS: ... when we submit him to water torture.

HUNTER: So, we scared—so, Chris—Chris, use your common sense.

MATTHEWS: So, don‘t tell me it‘s the same thing.

HUNTER: We scared Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. We scared him, but we didn‘t hurt him.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: We scared him. And he gave up three—three potential terrorist plots, and you don‘t think it‘s worth it.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: There isn‘t anyone that agrees that the information we got from him after he was tortured is tied to the torture.

MATTHEWS: There‘s no evidence of that. Let me...

HUNTER: I disagree.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: No one agrees with that. There‘s no—name one expert...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Direct quote—direct quote from the CIA—direct quote from the CIA: The interrogation methods gave us pivotal information. That‘s a direct quote.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: And direct quote from Frances Townsend said that that is not true.

MATTHEWS: OK. What are your—what are your limits? Mr. Duncan—

Mr. Hunter, what are your limits—what are your limits on what we can do to a prisoner?

HUNTER: I think what Americans—the—the—the standard should be, if we use it with our own soldiers in training, as we do water-boarding, then it should be allowed with people who have killed thousands of Americans.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: We threaten them with death? We threaten them with death?

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: You can‘t compare getting our troops ready for the torture they might face at the hands of another country as a detainee...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Yes.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... to what we practice on our detainees. Those -

those are apples and oranges.

HUNTER: So, limit it? No.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: So, you want our troops to be tortured? You want our troops to be water-boarded?

HUNTER: So, you‘re saying we can do it to our soldiers, Debbie.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: You‘re saying we can do it to our soldiers. We can‘t do it to terrorists.

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Because the chance of them being...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: That‘s nuts.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Duncan, the chance of them being subjected to it in another country...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK. OK. This argument is getting...

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: We have to make sure that they can get ready for it. You‘re comparing apples and oranges.

MATTHEWS: OK. We‘re—we‘re...

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: And—and what happens...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: And, by the way, I thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: ... prepare them for.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Mr. Hunter—Mr. Hunter, you‘re hanging on this like a life board.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: What happened to two wrongs don‘t make a right?

MATTHEWS: And I want to tell you something.

Every service person who comes to serve our country, even the worst kind of boot camp, like Parris Island, knows that there is always a chance of an accident. But they also know that none of the—the—the—the...

HUNTER: Yes.

MATTHEWS: ... drill instructors intend to kill them, never believe that, ever. And, therefore, it‘s not the same as what happens to a terrorist who is picked up by us. And you know the difference.

HUNTER: Chris, Chris, if you—Chris...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: That people that go through survival training...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: One is being threatened with death, and the other is being threatened with tough training.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: We get them ready. We get them ready in case—in the event that they‘re tortured.

HUNTER: The people that go through survival training do not what‘s going to—do not know what‘s going to come.

MATTHEWS: Well, they do know that their...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... is not out to kill them.

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... getting them ready in the event that they are tortured in another country.

HUNTER: OK. So, what you‘re saying...

MATTHEWS: What I‘m saying is common sense, though.

HUNTER: What you‘re saying is that scaring Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was bad.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much for coming...

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... get our troops ready.

What you‘re saying is...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: Hey—hey, Chris, what you‘re saying is that scaring Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was bad...

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: It‘s OK...

(CROSSTALK)

HUNTER: ... even though he killed 3,000 Americans.

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: ... just preposterous.

MATTHEWS: I‘m siding with John McCain...

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: No one is above the law.

MATTHEWS: ... because he has been there in both regards. He served has this country. And he‘s been tortured.

HUNTER: I have got two sons who are serving in Iraq or have served in Iraq.

MATTHEWS: And I—I have always pointed that out, sir. I always try to point out your service to your country and your sons‘ service.

HUNTER: And I think they‘re safer because of the methods that we have used.

MATTHEWS: OK.

Thank you very much, Congressman.

HUNTER: OK.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, there isn‘t any direct evidence of that.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

And I don‘t call you Debbie.

HUNTER: Good to be with you.

MATTHEWS: And I don‘t keep referring to Israel when you‘re on the show either.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Duncan Hunter, thank you, sir.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Up next: Will another Kennedy replace Teddy in the Senate? Could his nephew Joe go for the seat? We will look at the leading candidates for Kennedy‘s seat up in Massachusetts. That‘s coming up next.

You‘re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT

Source