CNN "State Of The Union With John King" -Transcript

Interview

CNN "State Of The Union With John King" -Transcript

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KING: Sixteen newsmakers, analysts and reporters were out on the Sunday morning talk shows today, but only one gets "The Last Word." That honor this day goes to Democratic congressman Emanuel Cleaver from the Kansas City area in Missouri.

Congressman, thanks for joining us on STATE OF THE UNION.

CLEAVER: Good to be with you.

KING: You said this past week that it might be time to hit the reset button in the health care reform debate because of the anxiety out there in the country.

Does the reset button, sir, in your view, include taking one of the most controversial aspects, the public option, a government-run health care plan, to be an alternative private health insurance -- taking that off the table?

Do you believe that needs to be done?

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D), MISSOURI: No. If we take the public option off the table, we don't have health care reform. I think we need to push the reset button to begin the discussion over. We are arguing over things that don't matter, death panels and whether or not black Americans will be able to go to non-black physicians, things that are completely ridiculous.

And I think we need to accept the fact, even those of us who are progressive -- I'm in the progressive caucus -- and realize that many Americans raise questions, and some of them are valid.

I think the whole issue about how we're going to pay for this is something that we need to spend more time on. And if we set the reset button and go back and try to have a civil discourse, I think it will serve the nation better, and ultimately we may be able to get health care approved.

KING: So you say a rhetorical reset, then, more than a policy reset. I want to come in -- Senator Joe Lieberman was on the program earlier. He's a Democrat turned independent, and he said, because of the rising deficit numbers, because of the anxiety out there in the country and the declining public support, that he believes the president should put off, temporarily, the goal of universal coverage and get about insurance reforms and other steps and prove first to the American people that you can drive down health care costs.

Let's listen to Senator Lieberman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIEBERMAN: And I'm afraid we've got to think about putting a lot of that off until the economy is out of recession. There's no reason we have to do it all now. But we do have to get started. And I think the way to -- the place to start is cost, health delivery reform and insurance market reforms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What's wrong with his approach of incremental reform?

CLEAVER: Well, he's basing that on what's gone on in August, and to be sure, we have had an argumentative and audacious August, no question about it. But I disagree that we put it -- we put it off to sometime in the future. I think we need to make haste slowly.

And by that I mean, we need to go back, erase some of the vagueness, or fill in the blanks where there's vagueness, and then begin the process of moving so that the American public understands that we're not going to abandon them because of this outrage that we heard in August. But we do it slow enough that we can bring them along.

I went to the airport three, four days ago, with one of my staffers, and one of my supporters followed me to the check-in point, asking me what was health care going to do for her?

She's a supporter, a Democrat. She's raising legitimate issues. And I think we've got to move slow enough to bring them along. But I think we don't move so slowly that the American public says, well, it's over; we've lost another battle.

We've been trying to get this done since Teddy Roosevelt. And I think now is the time, but I think we make haste slowly.

KING: You were a mayor, sir, before you came to Congress. You have been a chief executive. You've said this about the president of the United States and the health care debate.

You say, "President Obama underestimated the freefall the nation had already taken in partisan hostility when he talked about bringing change to Washington. It has gotten worse. There is something at play here that is indescribable."

As a former mayor, someone who's had to balance the books and lead the city through tough times, what else is the president underestimating? What is he doing wrong?

CLEAVER: Well, he's -- he's not doing anything wrong. In fact, he should be praised for being audacious enough to bring this contentious issue to the public. And I think that he has done a yeoman's job in trying to articulate what this health care bill will do.

I think, however, that he -- well, I don't want to do a Mr. Bush, but he underestimated...

(LAUGHTER)

... the -- I think -- the partisan divide.

One of the greatest insults to democracy is the putrid partisanship that refuses to even accept facts. And so, as a result, I think the president -- or underestimated the -- the fact that there would be some people in Congress who would rather deny him a victory than help the American public. And I think...

KING: So then -- so what should he do coming out of the break? If the votes for the public option are not in the Senate, should he go down on principle and hold firm, or should he make a compromise that you would not like but might be forced to accept?

CLEAVER: Well, let's -- let me answer it this way. In 1965, Wilbur Mills and Gerald Ford, two members of the House of Representatives, developed a compromise on Medicare and Medicaid.

I think that there is the possibility that the president can work with some Republicans. And I think he works with the ones who are interested in trying to get something accomplished. And I think, if he can do that, then we can get this difficult issue across.

But I don't think that the progressive caucus, for example, of which I'm a member, will ever accept a health care plan that does not deal with the lack of competition between the health care companies.

We have 130 health care -- private health care plans in this country, and they -- and they essentially work together. And so we've got to have -- they either need to become competitive or compromise. And that is something that I think the president has to be immovable on.

KING: "The Last Word" today from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver in Kansas City. Congressman, sir, thanks for your time.

CLEAVER: Good to be with you.

KING: Take care, sir.

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