CBS "Face The Nation" - Transcript

Interview

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BOB SCHIEFFER: And good morning, again. Joining us from Cedar Falls, Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley,
Republican. And here in the studio Senator Kent Conrad. Gentlemen, welcome to you both.
I want to start with the most controversial part of this thing. House Speaker Pelosi said this week that she
simply cannot pass a health care reform bill in the House unless it includes the so-called a-- public option
that is the government-run insurance program like Medicare.
Senator Grassley you have said-- you're on the record as saying you can't support a bill that includes that
public option. Senator Conrad, you have said that a bill with that option in it cannot pass the Senate. So I
will just start with you, Senator Grassley, same question to both of you, so what should the President do
now?
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-Iowa/Ranking, Finance Committee): Well, of course, the whole
thing could be dropped, because I think when you have as one of your main principles you want to make
health insurance available to everybody that doesn't have it and you want to make it as a-— aff--
affordable and accessible, then you've got everybody covered, then you wonder why you need any new
ideas. But I would suggest Speaker Pelosi that she get an awful lot of Republican support if that-- if she
would make that move to go along with something that's going to cover everybody.
Remember, our whole principle here is to offer people choices, so people do have choices today, if they
can get health insurance. The-- the co-op plan that we have come up with if it's run like Midwest co-ops
that we've known for a hundred and fifty years would be consumer-oriented--the benefits of it would go to
the consumer. It would be regulated just like other insurance companies. It would—it-- it would be-- it
would still remain choices. If you have a public option and you eventually get to only one option, then
there's no choices. And choice of different plans is what we want to preserve for America.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right, so Senator Conrad, you have been one of those talking about the so-called
co-op plan, and that would be you would have a cooperative that would provide this insurance to people
instead of the public option. But I want to just go back. You say the public option just simply can't pass.
You still believe that? Do you think that the President should just drop that and get on to something else?

SENATOR KENT CONRAD (D-North Dakota/Finance Committee): Well, I would say this. It is very clear
that in the United States Senate the public option does not have the votes. If we have to get to sixty votes
you cannot get there with public option. That's why I was asked to come up with an alternative. And the
alternative I came up with was this cooperative approach that, as Senator Grassley correctly describes, is
not government run or government controlled, it's controlled by its membership. But it does provide not-
for-profit competition to insurance companies. So it has appeal on both sides. It's the only proposal that
has bipartisan support. And if we're going to get sixty votes, we're going to need bipartisan support.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I don't want to get too deep into the weeds of Senate procedure here, but there are
some, including Tom Daschle, the former majority leader in the Senate who says that if you use a
procedure called reconciliation, which means you go around that requirement to having sixty votes before
you can vote on anything, that you could pass it. Would that be an option here to think about?
SENATOR KENT CONRAD: Well, it's an option, it's available. But as I have argued for many months, it
does not work very well. When you examine the way reconciliation works, it was designed solely for
deficit reduction, so it anticipated just changing spending numbers and revenue numbers. It never
contemplated substantive legislation. And the problem, then, is there are rules that apply to prevent
substantive legislation, which health care reform certainly is, insurance reform certainly is. And what you
are left with, as the parliamentarian has told us, would be Swiss cheese for legislation. So it's an option,
but it's not a very good one.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Senator Grassley--
SENATOR KENT CONRAD (overlapping): Bob--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Yes, go ahead.
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: Well, I wanted to say that, remember, reconciliation was put in place
to get deficits down. The-- the Dodd bill in the Senate and the Pelosi bill in the Senate drives the deficit up
and it doesn't cut in-- in-- insurance inflation. And we need to tackle those issues as well. And then the
other thing is, if-- if you have a reconciliation, it's a partisan approach. And I've said and-- and--everybody
else is saying, too, this is such an important issue, you know, its one-sixth of the economy, health care is,
and-- and health care implies life or death issues of every American. And it ought to be done on a broad
bipartisan basis. That's why we have the group of six. That's why we're trying to develop a bill that'll get
seventy-eighty votes, because you need a consensus on something this very, very important.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You-- you bring up a very interesting point, because President Obama said last week
that he now thinks Republicans, or many Republicans think it's more important to have-- to defeat this for
political reasons than it is to pass the health care reform bill.
Why shouldn't-- if that is the case, why shouldn't the President just go ahead and try to ram this through
with just democratic votes, Senator Grassley, if that's the only way to do it?
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: Well, that's not my goal or Senator Conrad's goal. We want
bipartisanship, because it is very, very important. The President has told me a lot of times he wants
bipartisanship. And part of the problem is you get conflicting signals out of the White House. Like a week
ago, on one of these Sunday programs, the secretary of HHS was on and said maybe a public option
wouldn't be necessary. And then in a couple of day the President gets hit from the left and he says it's
very, very important. So it would help if we would not get conflicting views from the White House.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Do you think, Senator Conrad, the President's got to be a little more specific on
exactly what he wants here?
SENATOR KENT CONRAD: You know, I think the President's come out this in about the right way. That
is, he has said, “Look, Congress it's your responsibility to come up with a detailed legislative plan.” He
has set certain principles. He has said, “Look, you got to contain cost, expand coverage, improve quality.

But Congress, it's your responsibility to come up with the details.” And he's kept the pressure on by
saying, “You can't just have an endless conversation.”
BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah, but nothing's happened. I mean you've come to a-- you've come to loggerheads
here. He wanted all this done before the August recess.
SENATOR KENT CONRAD: Well, I've always thought that that specific deadline could not be met,
because in our group the only committee that is doing this in a bipartisan way--three Democrats, three
Republicans--we've said the important thing is to get this right. And this is enormously complicated.
In our group, Senator Grassley and the rest of us, we've spent hundreds of hours, and that's really what
it's going to take to do this in the right way. But it can't be an endless conversation. At some point you got
to fish or cut bait.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah. Senator Grassley, you have talked as Senator Conrad has about a bipartisan
approach, but you really caught some Democrats off guard a couple weeks ago when you said this the
other day. Listen to this.
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY (August 12): We should not have a government program that
determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Now, Democrats say there is nothing in this legislation that would pull the plug on
grandma, or even require people to discuss it. Why did you say that, Senator Grassley?
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: I said that because--two reasons. Number one, I was responding to a
question at my town meetings. I let my constituents set the agenda. A person that asked me that question
was reading from language that they got off of the internet. It scared my constituents. And, the lang-- the
specific language I used was language that the President had used at Portsmouth, and I thought that it
was-- if he used the language, then if I responded exactly the same way that I had an opposite concern
about not using end-of-life counseling for saving money, then I-- I was answering--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): All right.
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: --and relieving the fears that my constituents had--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): Well, did you--
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY (overlapping): --and from-- from that standpoint, remember, you're
talking about this issue being connected with a-- a government-run program, which a public option would
take you with. You would-- you would get into the issue of saving money, and put these three things
together and you're scaring a lot of people.
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): Well--
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: And I know the Pel-- Pel-- Pelosi bill doesn't intend to do that, but
that's where it leads people to.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, but that's-- that's what I was trying to get from you this morning. You're not
saying that this legislation would pull the plug on grandma. You're just saying there are a lot of people out
there who think that it would--
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY (overlapping): No, no.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --or do you want to say this morning that that is not true, that it won't do that?

SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: Well, it won't do that. But I wanted to explain why my constituents are
concerned about it, and I also want to say that there is an eight billion dollar cost with that issue, and if
you're trying to save money and you put an eight billion dollars of-- of doctors giving you some advice at
the end of life, doctors are going to take advantage of earning that eight billion dollars and constituents
see that--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): All right.
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: --as an opportunity to-- to save some money. It just scares the devil
out of people. So--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): All right.
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: --that ought to be dropped. And by the way, some newspaper people
were saying that we dropped it from the Senate Finance Committee because of the hullabaloo that you
just played.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: And-- and that's not true. We got this out of our bill a long time ago.
And Senator Conrad will tell you that I was in conversation with people on the Finance Committee way
back in March that we were not going to have any of this end-of-life stuff in our bill because it scares
people.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. That-- that point taken.
Senator Conrad, some Republicans are advancing the idea of maybe you could split this bill in two, take
some of the less controversial aspects, put it in one bill and vote on that, then-- then go after the other
parts of it. Lyndon Johnson certainly did that with the civil rights legislation. Would that be a good idea?
SENATOR KENT CONRAD: I-- I think it's very unlikely, Bob, for that to work. You know, when you look at
the legislative agenda, it's very hard to see how you put two packages through and-- and coordinate them
well.
Look, we've got enough of a problem with the country heading for the cliff, and we're headed for a cliff
because costs in health care are spiraling out of control. It's the biggest unfunded liability of the United
States. We've got Medicare, according to the trustees, going to be broke in eight years. We're spending
twice as much as any other country in the world. We've got to take measures to contain costs, and we've
got to do it in a way that makes--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): Okay.
SENATOR KENT CONRAD: --affordability better for our constituents.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Senator Grassley, talking about paring this bill down, how much could you pare it
down? You say it's got to be a smaller bill. Give me a number. What would be a realistic number on how
much this is going to cost? They're talking about a trillion dollars now. You say that's too much. How
much could you pare this bill down?
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: What-- what we have to do is what we can do without-- there's two
goals we have: Not adding to the deficit, and making sure that we don't have health insurance inflation
much above the general inflation of the entire economy. That's our goal. The other goal is to have good
policy. Then we--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): All right.

SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: --put that good policy to the Congressional Budget Office. They score
it. If it's too high, then we bring it back. But the main goal is--
BOB SCHIEFFER (overlapping): Can you give me a number this morning, Senator?
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY: No, no, I will not give you a number.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Senator Conrad, can you give me a number? What would be a realistic price for this?
SENATOR KENT CONRAD: You know, we've not reached conclusion, so I don't want to go further than
we should. But I would just say this: It's going to have to be significantly less than what we've heard talked
about, because not only do we have to pay for this, we also have to bend the cost curve in the right way.
That means we've got to have the deficit reduced as a result of this effort. That is absolutely imperative.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So considerably less than what's being talked about now if it's going to pass.
SENATOR CHARLES GRASSLEY (overlapping): Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Gentlemen, thanks to both of you.
We'll be back with Howard Dean in just one minute.

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