CNN "State Of The Union" - Transcript

Statement

KING: Another 247,000 Americans lost their jobs in July. But in that bad news, a glimmer of hope -- the first monthly decline in the national unemployment rate in more than a year.

President Obama says the worst may be behind us. The past month was not as encouraging from the president's perspective, though, when it comes to the health care debate.

Both the House and the Senate missed White House deadlines for action. And now members of Congress are using their August break to get a firsthand assessment of whether the folks back home support the sweeping and expensive changes Mr. Obama says are critical.

Let's talk it over with the number two Democrat in the Senate, Dick Durbin of Illinois, and Republican Senator John Cornyn of Texas.

I want to start with the economy and, directly to you, Senator Cornyn, will Republicans support something the White House and Democrats say is critical, and that is another extension of unemployment benefits, even though there's a bit of a glimmer of hope in the economy?

Would you support that extension, and will Republicans make that an easy issue?

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: I think we need to provide a safety net for people who find themselves out of work temporarily. And hopefully the economy will pick up. Unfortunately, White House projections are that unemployment, even though it dipped down by one tick, will go over 10 percent. So, you know, it looks like we're in for some pretty tough days still ahead.

KING: So, yes, extend unemployment benefits?

CORNYN: I think we need to take a close look at that. We don't want to provide a disincentive to work, but where people are out of work and they need -- need some help, sure. We're -- we're open to that.

KING: All right, Senator Durbin, the big issue on your side is whether there will be a public option, a government plan to compete with private plans in the health insurance spectrum.

The chairman of the Budget Committee, Kent Conrad, has raised doubts on this program. That votes were there. And he already said this in "The Washington Post' on Thursday. "The hard reality is that a public option does not have enough support in the Senate to pass."

You're the number two Democrat. Should your caucus be prepared for a health care bill that does not have a robust public option?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Well, I can't speak for the caucus, but I'll tell you, luckily there are three Republican senators and only three who are still negotiating with us. And we want to keep them negotiating.

Some of them are opposed to a public option. Some want a co-op approach to it. But we're determined -- despite the kind of pressure that they're under to stop negotiating and stop working on it, we're determined to get a bill to the floor.

It doesn't have to be a perfect bill, but it should move forward through the amendment process. And at the end of the day, we've got to -- have to make sure that we have health care reform that really helps middle-income families.

KING: If you're determined to get a bill that those three Republicans support -- and I assume you hope would go to Senator Cornyn and others and say, look, you might at least try to give this a good look -- then you're open to having a bill. Because Senator Grassley, Senator Enzi, and others have said they don't want a public option.

If you want to keep them in the room, then, by extension, you are open to a bill without a public option -- fair?

DURBIN: I support a public option, but, yes, I am open. Just understand that after we pass this bill -- and I hope we do -- in the Senate, it will go to conference committee. We'll have a chance to work out all of our differences.

So we'll see how this ends, but I don't want the process to be filibustered to failure, which unfortunately, many senators are trying to do. I want to make sure that we do something positive for the American people. KING: Well, Senator Cornyn, let me come in on that point, because Senator Enzi, Senator Grassley are trying to reach agreement on some sort of a co-op plan that they think would get health care especially to people in rural areas -- and your state has many of them -- without a strong government hand.

Are you open to a co-op that has a -- maybe a larger government role but not a full government option?

CORNYN: Well, I'm not for a government takeover using another name like "co-op," but so we have to see what the details are.

But, you know, the problem is that there's a lot of middle ground where we can meet where it's insurance reform; it's realigning incentives to provide value rather than incentivize volume of procedures; providing continuity of care, medical homes and the like, which I think have a lot of hope out there to providing better quality of care at hopefully a lower price.

KING: Senator Durbin, the man leading those bipartisan negotiations you just talked about is the chairman of the Finance Committee, Max Baucus, and he said this this past week, that he wants to keep going, but that, by mid-September, he'll have to make a decision of whether he can keep those Republicans on board.

And he said this. "If Republicans aren't there, it could get to the point, where sometime after the recess, Democrats may have to go in a different direction. I hope not, but we have to face facts."

Facing facts would be going it alone with a Democratic bill. As you know, many of your own conservative Democrats think that's a bad idea, both from a policy standpoint and politically, to have one party trying to just shepherd and use its muscle to move through such a dramatic change to our health care and our economy, because of the role of health care in our economy.

DURBIN: I can just tell you, John, we need to take the time to get this right. But understand, Max Baucus has been working tirelessly for almost a year getting ready for this negotiation.

For months, he's been in a room with these three Republicans. These senators are under intense pressure from the Senate Republican leadership and Senate Republican donors from Texas and across the country, and yet they've stayed the course, and I respect them so much for it.

If it reaches the point where we cannot reach a bipartisan agreement, I don't want to see health care reform fail. We only get a chance once in a political lifetime to do something. We've got to make sure that, at the end of the day, we're going to come up with health care reform that really serves middle-income families across America.

KING: Let's get to the mood out there, now that you're all back home trying to take the pulse of your constituents. And I want to begin in Senator Cornyn's home state, because Lloyd Doggett, a more liberal congressman there, had a town hall and he had quite a loud town hall, and then he went on CNN and said he sees this as all part of some orchestrated effort by critics of the president's plan, not a grassroots revolt.

Let's listen to Congressman Doggett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LLOYD DOGGETT (D), TEXAS: They do have a script. I think this has disseminated through the Republican Party, through Web sites that they're going to and through some of the private organizations that are helping orchestrate all this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Other Democrats have gone as far as saying there are angry mobs out there. But, Senator Durbin, your colleague in the Senate, Claire McCaskill, a Democrat from Missouri, says, wait a minute, she said, "I disagree that the people showing concern over some health care proposals are manufactured." She disagrees with that. She says they're real folks with strong opinions.

Who's right? Congressman Doggett or Senator McCaskill?

DURBIN: I can tell you Claire McCaskill's right that there is a large group in America stuck right smack dab in the middle. They have honest questions about health care reform, questions that need to be asked and answered.

In the meantime, we have these screaming groups on either side. That isn't helpful. Let's be honest about this. Town meetings are not bean bag. I've had hundreds of them and sometimes folks get upset. And that's part of America, part of our process.

But this is clearly being orchestrated and these folks have instructions. They come down from a Texas lobbyist in Washington...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Let me ask you something -- let me interrupt -- let me interrupt, Senator. Is there anything wrong with that? This country was founded on a whole series of events, including the Boston Tea Party in my home town, where people were organized and they were instructed to go somewhere and raise hell.

Is there anything wrong with that?

DURBIN: I'll tell you what's wrong with it -- when there are a group of people honestly sitting in the middle trying to ask the important questions and get the right answers, and instead someone takes the microphone and screams and shouts to the point where the meeting comes to an end.

That isn't dialogue, that isn't the democratic process. You know, we need to respect free speech, but we need to respect one another's rights to free speech, too. When these people come in just to disrupt the meetings, no, that isn't right.

KING: So, Senator Cornyn, do you agree with Senator Durbin that some of these people are overstepping?

CORNYN: Well, I was with Congressman Doggett yesterday at a community health clinic here in Austin, and there were, I would say, an equal number of people who were clamoring for a single-payer system and those who said that this is -- they're scared to death that what they have now they won't be able to keep, and that Medicare, which is, of course, the safety net health care system for so many seniors, will be undercut by $500 billion, cut from that program just to pay for this vast expansion of the government's role in health care.

The latest budget projection by the Budget Committee shows that over a 10-year period of time, this will cost $2.4 trillion, that's the House bill, and of course, it will be funded by Medicare cuts, it will be funded by tax increases on small business. And during a time of recession, that would kill the ability of small businesses to allow us to retain and create new jobs.

So I think we need to slow down, as Senator Durbin said earlier, that's why I'm glad we have this August recess. We can talk to our constituents, hear from them, and let's keep working together to try to come up with something that makes sense.

KING: Gentlemen, I'm sorry, but we're out of time on this Sunday. I promise, you can both come back here as this debate continues. Senator Cornyn of Texas, Senator Durbin of Illinois, thank you both, gentlemen.

And up next, we'll get analysis on where this health care is heading with political strategist Donna Brazile and Ed Gillespie.

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