Hearing of the House Armed Services Committee Subject Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

HEADLINE: HEARING OF THE HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE

SUBJECT: IRAQI PRISONER ABUSE

CHAIRED BY: REPRESENTATIVE DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA)

WITNESSES: DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE; GENERAL RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF; LES BROWNLEE, ACTING SECRETARY OF THE ARMY GENERAL PETER SCHOOMAKER, ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF; AND LIEUTENANT GENERAL LANCE SMITH, DEPUTY COMMANDER, CENTCOM

LOCATION: 2118 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING, WASHINGTON, D.C.

BREAK IN TRANSCRIPT
The gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Cole.

REP. TOM COLE (R-OK): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate that.

Before we begin, I just wanted to, frankly, thank each one of you for your service. You've collectively spent your lives-and, Mr. Secretary, you in more capacities than almost anybody I could imagine-serving your country. And I appreciate that. I think everybody here respects your patriotism collectively and individually, and your professionalism, and, frankly, your professional integrity. And this is a very sad and difficult day for us. I can't imagine what it is for you. And I just felt like that needed to be said.

Having said that, I want to make one other comment before I get to my questions, or make two other points. One, it was mentioned earlier that the response, once this came up, was timely and thorough. And I think that's true, but only to a point. I think it's very true with respect to as soon as people knew something was happening, things started-criminal investigations began, people started looking at it, actions were taken. But I think the department, frankly, was extraordinarily slow in understanding the implications of what was going on and what that was going to do to public support for this effort in this country, what it was going to do to our efforts to win support in Iraq, and what it was going to do with respect to our enemy. I mean, we shouldn't kid ourselves, this is a political and public relations Pearl Harbor. It is a disaster of enormous magnitude and a great setback to us. And I think we were very slow to recognize that.

I would also say-and I agree with my friend, Mr. Snyder-I think you were very slow in coming to your civilian counterparts, or certainly the Congress. I think we could have and would have been helpful. I mean, terrible things happen in war, awful things happen in war. But I know this country well enough to know it can't sustain conflict if it doesn't believe in the conflict that it's fighting and it doesn't believe in the cause that it's for. And, you know, I think we could have helped in that regard and explained that. And I would hope as we move forward that you keep that in mind.

Having said those things, there's a couple of things I'd really like to focus on. One, there's a-we've had these press reports, and we began to discuss them a moment ago, that we've had multiple alarm bells, not just a lot of bad things happening in one place, but a number of bad things happening in a number of different places. And there's a big difference between those two. If we've got something that went wrong with a particular unit, a particular place, a particular time, that's one thing. If we've got a number of places where we are detaining prisoners of war, detainees of one sort of another, and there are bad things happening in all those places, then that suggests a real problem in our systems, our command personnel, our training, everything.

So I would ask you, which is it? And be happy to direct it, maybe, Mr. Smith, to you first because I think you're most immediately-but I think that's a very important thing for us to establish, how broad is this problem.

GEN. SMITH: Sir, I mean, there's obviously abuse that occurs in the system from the time that somebody is captured to the time they're interned and released. Most of that occurs before arrival at the internment facility. But there are events that occur. But it is, in my view, not systemic. That they're rare events. That's what I was trying to get at about when I described how Abu Ghraib is. I mean, at the time, there were 7(,000) to 8,000 detainees there, and while there were probably other levels of abuse, they were more of the kind of being hooded and standing outside the facility with your arms tied behind you or something like that while they were waiting too long to get in. Nothing, nothing, that even begins to compare to what we see in the pictures.

REP. COLE: And again, that is a very important point as you move forward, to establish whether or not that's true, because I really think the confidence that the country has will turn on that a great deal.

Second, let me ask you: I would argue, and I think you've acknowledged, that you were slow in informing Congress. We found out in a very unfortunate way, the American people found out in a very unfortunate way, about this. Given that, when were you planning to let us know? And how were you planning to let us know? There's clearly, you know, a process here, but what were you thinking in terms of timeline?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Well, let me walk back over it. It was announced to the public in January that there were charges of abuse. In March, he announced it again, and he listed specific indecent acts and sexual acts and other aspects of the abuse. And that was announced to the world. It was briefed to the press in Baghdad.

REP. COLE: I've been --

SEC. RUMSFELD: It was questions on CNN here and --

REP. COLE: I understand that, Mr. Secretary. And I'm not trying to be contrary or adversarial. But there is a big difference. I mean, you know --

SEC. RUMSFELD: Of course there is.

REP. COLE: -- when you really want us to know something, it's amazing, we usually have a classified hearing or-I'm not saying that needed to be, but --

SEC. RUMSFELD: Okay, I'll answer your.

REP. COLE: Yes, sir.

SEC. RUMSFELD: You knew exactly what we knew-I knew. The people in the command who were running the investigations, the criminal investigations, who had access to that disc, knew more. I didn't know it. The president didn't know it. You didn't know it. The real issue is that a secret report was given to the press. And the disc. Out of order. And you say, "When did you plan to do this?" We didn't plan it because we didn't know about it. We hadn't seen that report. We hadn't seen the disc.

REP. COLE: And I think that's precisely, perhaps, the problem, Mr. Secretary.

SEC. RUMSFELD: Exactly.

REP. COLE: Not just that it was let out, because honestly, something like this was going to get out. But why did this not get to you, I mean, with extraordinary speed?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Yeah.

REP. COLE: And why did not-because I think, as you say, the minute you see it, the implications were breathtakingly obvious.

But that information was in the system, that there was something badly wrong for months. And this was not just a question of individual rights, but for months in a way that now undercut our ability to wage this war, to be successful, the credibility of outstanding men and women, and it was not acted upon and it was not brought to you or to us in a way in which we could help you. And I would just hope, you know, this is-I know this is agonizing to have to go back through this and I'm really trying to look forward.

The most important thing to me is one, could you figure out if it's systemic and let us work with you on it? Because if it is, we got a big problem. And two, how do we deal with this stuff where it doesn't break out of the blue on us in a way that really is an enormous setback to our efforts? You know, aside from the atrocity, the horror of this, where the individuals-and I know you share that. I have no doubt. I mean, you're all honorable, decent men. I know you are repelled by what you saw and what occurred, no doubt. But we are even beyond that. As bad as that is, what has stemmed from this of national and international consequences are just-it's just staggering to me. So --

SEC. RUMSFELD: Well, Congressman --

REP. COLE: Absolutely.

SEC. RUMSFELD: We're trying to figure out what can be done to the process that is respectful of the defendants' rights, that does not put the Pentagon into the 18,000 criminal investigations that are going on in any one year, and yet we have the ability to find out something that is that big, that enormous, that is that potential for damage to our country. The system currently does not provide for that, and unless somebody down below looked at it and-out of the-it-probably first in the criminal investigation procedures looks at it and says, well, we don't give these things to anybody, this has got to be kept in the criminal-but this is different. And I don't know how we do that, but we're going to sure try to figure out a way to do it.

REP. COLE: Well, let us-if I may just close with this. Let us work with you on that because this committee is full of your friends on both sides of the aisle, I can assure you that, and believes in what you're trying to do and trusts your personal integrity. And you know, part of this perhaps is we've not had quite the degree of trust or dialogue back and forth that we ought to have. So let us work with you to try and achieve that objective.

And thank you very much. And again, thank you for your service. I can't say it-I know this is a tough, tough day, and you know, you've earned everybody's respect in this country and certainly on this committee.