MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" Interview - Transcript
Press Release
Rep. Gabrielle Giffords; Rep. Darrell Issa
Interviewer: Mike Barnicle
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MR. BARNICLE: President Obama has a pretty full plate, with two wars and plans for health care, education and energy. Today's New York Times, though, reports he's got plans for another tough issue -- immigration. According to The Times, the president plans to speak publicly about the issue in May, an administration official said, and over the summer he will convene working groups, including lawmakers from both parties and a range of immigration groups to begin discussing possible legislation for as early as this fall.
So the question: Can President Obama finish what President Bush started, and what's different this time out?
Joining us now, two members of Congress, Arizona Democrat Gabrielle Giffords and California Republican Darrell Issa.
Congressman Issa, what is different, if anything, now?
REP. ISSA: Well, the president gets a fresh start. He gets to see if he can strike the right balance, one that does real enforcement, one that has opportunities for guest workers, but quite frankly, one that does not give a pathway to citizenship as a reward for being already here illegally. That's probably the middle ground that at least Republicans would be willing to come to.
MR. BARNICLE: Congressman, let me ask you a transportation question here now. We have supposedly up to 12 million illegal immigrants in this country, maybe more. How do we get them out?
REP. ISSA: Well, first of all, many are --
REP. GIFFORDS: Well --
REP. ISSA: I'm sorry. You said congressman. I apologize.
Many are already leaving because of a bad economy, and more may need to leave because there aren't enough jobs for Americans already here that Americans will do. That's probably less of a problem than saying, "Here is the law and we expect it to be obeyed," which is something that the previous administration wasn't very good at.
MR. BARNICLE: Congressman Giffords, I'm sorry I interrupted you. What were you going to say? Congresswoman.
REP. GIFFORDS: I want to first talk about how those immigrants are coming into the country, because almost 50 percent that enter from Mexico come in through southern Arizona, through the Tucson sector. And securing the border has to be the president's first priority.
We have such an inundation; in fact, just last year, 317,000 apprehensions, which was down from the previous year, about 380,000. So, first and foremost, border security, absolutely. No one's talking about amnesty. Amnesty is what President Ronald Reagan granted back in the 1980s. We're talking about a realistic plan to deal with the millions of people who are here, bringing people out of the shadows, making sure that there's some form of documentation for those folks.
But also we have to address the tougher sanctions for employers, those businesses who are knowingly hiring people who are here illegally. President Bush -- I believe this was a priority for him, and I've got to give him credit for that -- was not able to pass meaningful legislation, and now it's fallen on the shoulders of the Obama administration.
MR. BARNICLE: So what's going to make his chances any better than President Bush's chances of dealing with this issue that incites rage whenever it's mentioned, coast to coast, not just in Arizona or California?
REP. GIFFORDS: Well, because we don't have an immigration system that works, it's not good for border security. It's not good -- when you think about just in the last year's time, 7,000 homicides because of drug cartel violence, that narco-insurgency we see now brewing up north, affecting cities like Phoenix, other places around the country as well. So inaction is simply not an option.
But the reality is the president is smart. He says he can multitask. He's not presenting any specific legislation. He's being thoughtful. He's talking about going around talking to Democrats and Republicans, people on all sides of the issue, to see if we can forge some common ground.
MR. BARNICLE: Congressman Issa, what break, if any, is President Obama going to get from the Republicans on this issue that President Bush may not have gotten, or is he going to get any?
REP. ISSA: Well, I think if he starts off, quite frankly, what Gabrielle is saying, enforcement, no amnesty, but dealing with people that are already here, dealing with a system that has been in denial as to the amount of people that are here and what they're doing, working on a bipartisan basis, and then taking the art of the possible, something that people in the House and the Senate are used to, then there probably is middle ground, because what's been described is exactly what needs to be done.
We can't tell everyone to go home overnight, particularly when we don't have secure borders and we don't have a plan for what to do with whatever amount of those jobs really would be needed to be picked up by a legitimate guest worker program. That's where I think immigration fell flat under the Bush administration. It wasn't that he didn't try. It's that he didn't get buy-in before he announced his solution.
MR. BARNICLE: Congresswoman, how do we secure the borders? How do we keep people from coming in illegally from south of Arizona, across that border? And how do we prevent guns from going south across the border back to Mexico? How do we secure the borders?
REP. GIFFORDS: Well, there was a systematic approach many years ago where California, with Operation Hold the Line -- excuse me, Operation Gatekeeper --
REP. ISSA: Gatekeeper.
REP. GIFFORDS: -- Texas, Operation Hold the Line, there was a funneling of illegal immigrants through southern Arizona, because the idea was this was the most dangerous and perilous part of the border and people wouldn't cross. Well, they continued to cross, and, of course, hundreds die every single year. It's a catastrophic situation.
You talk to the ranchers and the farmers out in Cochise County, the far southeast corner of my district, and they're heavily impacted. I mean, I talked of some numbers earlier. I mean, really, it is staggering. The Tucson sector handles almost 50 percent of all crossings. Yet when you look at the staffing levels for our sector of the Border Patrol, frankly, we're about 17 percent.
So I think at this point we can take some of the other assets that are in California or in Texas or other parts of the country and focus on the area that needs it the most, which, of course, is the Tucson sector of the Border Patrol. That's important.
Now, I just had a border violence summit with 60 officials from the federal level, state and local level just a couple of days ago here in Tucson. And what came out, from talking to all those levels of law enforcement officials, is that we have to make sure that we do a better job and the Mexicans do a better job checking southbound traffic. Those guns are traveling south in cars, in trains and in tractor-trailers. We have to make sure that the enforcement happens going both ways.
MR. BARNICLE: Hey, Congressman Issa, next week the president is going to Mexico. In the unlikely event that he ever called you and said, "What do you think I ought to tell the president of Mexico?" what would you tell him to say?
REP. ISSA: I think the most important thing for him to say to the president is, "Thank you. Thank you for making a difference between yourself and President Fox." This president has taken on a problem that Mexico was in denial on, the fact that 6,000 or 7,000 -- actually, 7,000 people have died in violence south of the border. The amount of police that are every day being killed is, in a sad way, a tribute to what this president is doing and President Fox didn't.
And I think President Obama is going to have to say, like Plan Colombia, "America will be with you in support of what you need," whether it's Predator aircraft near the border or it's actual direct help well into Mexico, to round up and to break the back of these cartels. And I think you heard, quite rightfully so, we have to do our part. We have to make sure that guns do not go south of the border to the narco-terrorists operating in Mexico, because ultimately violence will cross our border. We need to help the Mexicans win their war against drugs, which we are the purchaser of the drugs, but they are presently the harborer of these people.
MR. BARNICLE: Congressman Darrell Issa, Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, thanks very much. We appreciate it.
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