Hearing of the National Security Subcommittee of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee - Afghanistan and Pakistan: Resourcing the Civilian Surge

Statement

Witnesses: Paul Jones, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia; David Sedney, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Central Asian Affairs; James Bever, Deputy Assistant Administrator, Asia and Near East Bureau, U.S. Agency for International Development; Michael Michener, Administrator, Foreign Agricultural Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture; John Herbst, Coordinator, Office of Reconstruction and Stabilization, U.S. Department of State

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REP. TIERNEY: Good morning.

A quorum being present of the Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, the hearing entitled "Afghanistan and Pakistan: Resourcing the Civilian Surge" will come to order.

I ask unanimous consent that only the chairman and ranking member of the subcommittee be allowed to make opening statements. Without objection, so ordered.

I ask unanimous consent that formal written testimony from Dr. Patrick Cronin of the National Defense University be accepted for the record. Without objection, so ordered.

I ask unanimous consent that the hearing record be kept open for five business days so that all members of the subcommittee will be allowed to submit a written statement for the record. And without objection, so ordered.

Well, I want to thank all of our panel for being here with us this morning. Today the Subcommittee on National Security and Foreign Affairs will explore the civilian surge component of the president's new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The president has said that a campaign against extremism will not succeed with bullets and bombs alone. As such, a critical part of the administration's new strategy for the region is to significantly increase civilian staffing.

The plan to surge upwards of 500 civilians over a short time horizon into the Afghanistan and Pakistan centers, it enters uncharted waters for civilian agencies such as the United States Department of Agriculture, the State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development.

The last time economists, city managers, agronomists, law advisers and accountants were recruited and deployed en masse to a combat theater goes back at least four decades, the U.S. support for pacification programs during the Vietnam War era.

This hearing examines what we have learned from more recent civilian deployments in post-conflict states like Iraq and failed states like Sudan. We have gathered this experienced panel of administration officials to share with us their plans to recruit, train and deploy this new cadre of civilians. We are counting on them to ensure that the best-trained staff will be deployed to today's most challenging foreign theater, Afghanistan and Pakistan.

As the subcommittee with interagency jurisdiction, we are especially interested in the extent of collaborative planning among the civilian agencies to support a whole-of-government approach to reconstruction and development. The subcommittee is also keenly interested in how the civilian agencies are coordinating with the Department of Defense on pre-deployment training so that we're using existing resources and not reinventing courses, curricula and other educational materials for our civilian surge recruits.

Some observers of recruitment programs have said that finding additional qualified civilians has been hampered by the ongoing heavy demand in Iraq for civilian and military construction experts. In their view, those not working in Iraq are already in Afghanistan. As such, there is a risk that new applicants responding to today's personnel recruitment ads will not have the requisite skills and/or the overseas experience to hit the ground running.

If this is accurate, civilians recruited for the surge will need considerable training and country familiarization before deploying if they are to be effective upon arrival. The scarcity of qualified civilians has led to numerous media reports suggesting that the Department of Defense, rather than the civilian agencies, is likely to fill most of the billets.

Another issue that surge civilians will face in country is how well they are integrated within and coordinated with the military. Many surge recruits will likely be assigned to provincial reconstruction teams led by military officers. The PRTs will likely have a total of three or four diplomacy reconstruction and aid development subject matter experts from USAID, the Department of State, the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Justice.

The surge civilians working for ministries in Kabul or the provinces will also need to coordinate with the military to avoid duplication of effort and to strengthen local capabilities. While the military has worked hard to establish and implement the unified military command, it seems desirable to have an analogous unified civilian command. And ultimately both commands will need to be fully integrated to achieve long-lasting positive results.

Frankly, the call for a civilian surge in Afghanistan is not new. In late 2008, predating the new Afghanistan-Pakistan strategy, the U.S. embassy in Kabul requested a major increase in government civilians in such areas as governance, rule of law, development and diplomacy to be deployed at provincial and district levels.

Regrettably, we are told that this request was not fulfilled. The State Department's Office of the Coordinator for Reconstruction and Stabilization, created in 2004, was chartered to lead U.S. efforts to respond to crisis in failing, failed or post-conflict situations like the present one in Afghanistan. It is not clear to me what role SCRS can or will play in Afghanistan and Pakistan at this critical moment, and we hope to have that addressed this morning.

I'm pleased to have with us today administration officials from the State Department, USAID, USDA and the Department of Defense. We want to know how you are planning to staff the Afghanistan-Pakistan civilian surge in regard to recruitment, training, deployment and retention. We want to know what lessons you've learned in Iraq and elsewhere in terms of utilizing civilians in complex operations.

And additionally, the subcommittee would like to hear how to best expand and institutionalize the ready-to-deploy civilian workforce that keeps in step with increasing security challenges in weak and failed states. I look forward to hearing how each of your agencies intends to translate the president's strategy into operational reality.

And with that, I defer to Mr. Flake for his opening comments.

REP. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I don't have much to add. I think the chairman said it very well. We're looking to see some detail and to see how you plan to implement it. I think all of us recognize the need for this kind of civilian surge. It's just we don't have many details about how it's going to be carried out, and obviously, as the chairman mentioned, to see what lessons have been learned in Iraq, and already in Afghanistan.

I think those of us who've traveled to Afghanistan have seen the need for better coordination with military counterparts and civilians that are there, and I'm anxious to hear how you plan to do that.

So with that, thank you all. And I look forward to the testimony.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you, Mr. Flake.

The subcommittee will now receive testimony from the witnesses before us today. Let me introduce them briefly, if I might.

Mr. Paul W. Jones currently serves as the deputy special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan. A member of the Senior Foreign Service, Mr. Jones previously served as deputy chief of mission at the United States embassies in the Philippines and in Macedonia. Mr. Jones has also served as director of the executive secretariat staff supporting the secretary of State and director of the Office of South-Central Europe, responsible for U.S. policy in the Balkans. Mr. Jones holds a B.A. from Cornell University, an MPA from the University of Virginia, and an M.A. from the Naval War College.

Welcome, Mr. Jones.

Mr. David Sedney currently serves as deputy assistant secretary of Defense for Afghanistan, Pakistan and Central Asia. Most recently, Mr. Sedney was deputy assistant secretary of Defense for East Asia, and prior to that served as deputy chief of mission to the United States embassy in Beijing.

After reopening the U.S. embassy in Kabul in 2002, Mr. Sedney served there as deputy chief of mission, a post that he again served in from 2003 to 2004. He later served as director for Afghanistan at the National Security Council. Mr. Sedney holds a B.A. from Princeton University and a J.D. from Suffolk University Law School -- a good school, I might add.

Mr. James Bever currently serves as director of the Afghanistan- Pakistan task force at the United States Agency for International Development, where he oversees more than $4 billion in U.S. assistance to Afghanistan and Pakistan. A member of the Senior Foreign Service, Mr. Bever previously served as senior deputy assistant administrator for the Middle East, providing leadership for two and a half billion dollars in U.S. assistance for the Middle East and North Africa. Mr. Bever holds a B.A. from Cornell University and an M.S. from Georgetown University.

Mr. Michael Michener currently serves as the administrator for the Foreign Agricultural Service at the United States Department of Agriculture. Prior to that, he served as a senior democracy and governance adviser and lead planning officer for the State Department's Office of the Coordinator for Reconstruction and Stabilization. Mr. Michener also previously worked for the State Department as the lead Iraq policy officer for democracy and human rights assistance programs. Mr. Michener holds a B.A. from the University of Maryland.

Ambassador John E. Herbst currently serves as the coordinator for Reconstruction and Stabilization at the United States Department of State. A member of the Senior Foreign Service, Ambassador Herbst previously served as U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and Uzbekistan and has held other postings in Jerusalem, Moscow and Riyadh. Ambassador Herbst holds a B.S. from Georgetown University and a Master of Law and Diplomacy from the Fletcher School of Tufts University.

I want to thank all of you for making yourselves available today.

It's the practice of this subcommittee to have members of the panel sworn in before they testify, so I ask you to please stand and raise your right hands.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

ALL: (Off mike.)

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you. You may be seated.

The record will reflect that all of the members of the panel answered in the affirmative.

And your written comments, which you were kind enough to submit in advance to the panel, will already be on record and accepted as that. So we ask you to please give us a statement of five minutes or less, if you can. And from that, we'll ask some questions and proceed accordingly.

So Mr. Jones, if you'd be kind enough to begin.

MR. JONES: Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman Tierney and Ranking Member Flake, distinguished members of the subcommittee, for inviting me here today. It's a real privilege to appear before you.

Ambassador Holbrooke and his interagency team are committed to working closely with Congress as we implement a new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan. And we appreciate the deep interest and knowledge among the members of this subcommittee.

Congressional support for the president's strategy and the resources needed to implement it are critical to our success, and we look forward to continuing this fruitful dialogue.

I'm here today to discuss the significant civilian increase, particularly for Afghanistan, that the president announced in late March. At that time, he noted that, quote, "to advance security, opportunity and justice, not just in Kabul but from the bottom up in the provinces, we need agricultural specialists and educators, engineers and lawyers," unquote.

We are working with 10 other U.S. government departments and agencies to identify and deploy civilian personnel to work alongside not only U.S. military personnel, but also our Afghan and international partners. This civilian increase is one of several significant elements of the administration's new strategy, and it underscores our conviction that achieving counterinsurgency objectives in Afghanistan and Pakistan will require enhanced civilian-military coordination at all levels.

You have the details of the plan in my written statement, but let me highlight just a couple of key components.

U.S. civilians will help build Afghan government capacity in the most dangerous insurgent-afflicted parts of the country and will also expand programs to create jobs and build local economies.

The U.S. Embassy and U.S. Forces Afghanistan, in coordination with the International Security Assistance Force, ISAF, determined that approximately 420 more U.S. civilian specialists were needed in specific locations between July 2009 and March 2010 to work closely with our military to focus on the hold and build phases in contested parts of the country.

The new personnel will also have a multiplier effect as they hire additional Afghan staff and expand NGO partnerships. A joint U.S. Embassy/U.S. Forces Afghanistan team is constantly re-evaluating the civilian increase, and if more civilian capacity is required, we will provide it.

We adopted a whole-of-government approach to meet the civilian requirements. Experts from the Department of State, USAID and the Department of Agriculture constitute the core of the civilian teams that will deploy outside Kabul to the provinces and districts with our military. Personnel from the State Department's Office of Reconstruction and Stabilization are helping to integrate civilian and military activities, and we expect they will also fill some civilian increased priorities in the field.

Despite the risks of deploying to an active conflict zone, I'm pleased to report that there has been a tremendous response to the call to duty. As a result, we are on track and on schedule to staff the entire civilian increase with highly qualified State, USAID and USDA permanent and temporary hire personnel in the field.

A new service recognition package will provide those serving in Afghanistan with the same benefits as those serving in Iraq. Many applicants have prior experience in Afghanistan or Iraq and they're eager to once again serve on the front lines.

If staffing gaps develop, we will immediately turn to other hiring streams, including the Department of Defense's civilian expeditionary workforce and, if needed, examine the possibility of utilizing military reservists in civilian attire and under chief of mission authority.

To ensure that civilians are fully prepared, we are upgrading an integrated civilian-military training program that all civilians will attend. To ensure that civilians are well-led and coordinated, we are upgrading our leadership at Embassy Kabul and in the field. Four U.S. ambassadors will lead civilian efforts at our embassy in Kabul and coordinate directly with our military.

To illustrate how the civilian increase will work, let me cite -- give this as an example -- just one Afghan province. In Helmand Province in the south, where significant new U.S. military personnel will deploy, we currently have one State Department representative, one USAID development expert, and three Afghan staff on the British- led provisional reconstruction team located in the capital.

The civilian increase will add 11 additional State Department representatives, four USAID development experts, one USDA agricultural specialist, and six Afghan staff. They will work with the new military units to establish three new district support teams. At the same time, USAID's implementing partner staff will increase from approximately 30 to 35 international personnel and from approximately 400 to 450 Afghan specialists working for NGOs, which are funded by U.S. government development projects.

This influx of additional U.S. and Afghan civilian personnel will add significantly to our ability to build local Afghan government capacity and oversee assistance projects while teaming up with military colleagues to stabilize this conflicted province.

We know from experience in Afghanistan and Iraq that lack of security can inhibit civilian effectiveness by limiting the ability of civilians to travel outside of military bases. We very much welcome General Petraeus's strong commitment to ensure maximum freedom of movement for civilians and we will work closely with his team to make that operational.

Civilian field presence is, of course, not simply a U.S. job. Our coalition partners are playing an important role. Some, like Canada and the United Kingdom, have had significant civilian field presence in southern Afghanistan for some time. We encourage our partners to augment their civilian field footprint and are actively coordinating in Kabul through -- with the help of the United Nations.

Significantly, the -- I might add, that subject was explored among the special representatives that just met in Istanbul. Ambassador Holbrooke and his colleagues were talking about the very subject yesterday.

Significantly, the Afghan government recently presented a plan for some 650 international and Afghan technical experts. We're discussing actively, with the Afghans and our partners, how much of that need is being met by planned civilian increases and what more may need to be done.

Finally, I would like to cite the important work of the Special Inspector (General) for Afghanistan Reconstruction, SIGAR. Ambassador Holbrooke and his team strongly support the role of General Fields in closing monitoring the disbursement of assistance. The Afghan government has specifically asked SIGAR to advance its own anticorruption efforts. SIGAR is Congress's representative on the ground, and we would like to see them deployed in every province. We value SIGAR and respect their independence. To the extent that Congress is willing to expand its mandate and responsibilities, Ambassador Holbrooke has made clear we would very strongly support that.

Thank you again for this opportunity to appear before you today, and I look forward to your questions.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you, Mr. Jones. We appreciate your testimony.

Mr. Sedney?

MR. SEDNEY: Mr. Chairman, thank you and the members of the committee for this opportunity to testify. And I can confirm it; this is the first time that I've appeared before Congress to a fellow Suffolk University alumni.

The appearance here with my interagency colleagues is, I think, a very accurate reflection of exactly what my colleague Mr. Jones said about the interagency approach here. The Department of Defense, in this effort -- civilian effort, is playing very much a supporting role. As you know, the strategic review that the president -- that the president ordered and that the administration carried out came to the conclusion -- after extensive consultation, I might stress, with our allies and friends and looking at the experiences not just in Afghanistan but also in Iraq -- the importance of a need for expanded civilian presence.

We are currently implementing, as Mr. Jones said, a request for over 400. General Petraeus has made very clear, he has pledged that we will -- the Department of Defense, CENTCOM, the U.S. forces on the ground -- we'll provide the necessary support for additional civilians, to include the security issue that Mr. Jones mentioned as well as other areas of support that are necessary. If there are additional personnel beyond the current request, we will be prepared to support those as well.

If -- and it hasn't happened yet -- but if the State Department were to ask us for additional help, as Mr. Jones said, the department is prepared to respond. That request hasn't happened yet, and -- but if it does happen, we are prepared to respond. On May 11th, Secretary Gates signed a memorandum directing the undersecretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness to identify civilian employees capable of deploying in Afghanistan in support of U.S. government initiatives. This initiative is to identify potential candidates if a request is made. But I want to again say we are supporting the State Department in this. The Defense Department is not in the lead. There is no -- there is no plan for the Department of Defense to take over this activity. We are in support of the -- of the Department of State.

The planning to integrate the civilian-military effort that you mentioned in your statement, Mr. Chairman, is very much under way. The integrated civil-military action group at the embassy and the interagency team, which includes the U.S. Forces-Afghanistan as an integral part, is coordinating our lines of effort in this area.

We are, of course, continually reviewing how to do this better, how to make sure that we are able to carry out the requirements of the president's -- of the president's policy. We will not get everything right at the beginning, I'm sure. We will have to -- just to review how things are going, and if there are areas where we need to make improvements, we will. But I would say that I'm -- given the level of interagency cooperation here, the level of interagency attention to this, I am very optimistic that we will be able to succeed.

With that, Mr. Chairman, ready for any questions you may have later.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you very much for your testimony.

Mr. Bever.

MR. BEVER: Thank you very much, Chairman Tierney and Ranking Member Flake and other members of the committee.

I'd like to start, if I could, with a short little story of the time when David Sedney and I served together in Afghanistan five to six years ago. We had the task of rebuilding the Kabul-Kandahar highway through an extremely dangerous part of Afghanistan at the time. I was invited to have -- this was in Zabul Province in the southeast. We were invited to lunch with the governor at the time in Zabul Province. He was later assassinated, sadly. But at the end of this lunch, which was with tribal leaders, as I was leaving with my convoy, one of the large Pashtun tribal leaders came up to me and pulled my arm and reached out and pointed to my watch and said, "Remember one thing. You Americans have all the watches. Taliban have all the time."

That made a very lasting impression on me. It was, in fact, an epiphany in my own career, because I was eligible to retire at that time. And I thought, no, this struggle is too important for all of us and this is a long struggle and one that requires input on the development side as well to help evolve people's minds and attitudes.

As a result, here we are a number of years later. USAID still takes Afghanistan and Pakistan extremely seriously. We take the staffing up of our involvement very seriously. We cooperate very actively with the members here at this table, interagency and at the National Security Council. We look forward to a new partnership with Michael Michener and the Foreign Agriculture Service of the U.S. Department of Agriculture and we have formed a whole-of-agency task force at USAID since Thanksgiving to oversee a combined Afghanistan- Pakistan effort within AID. We meet at the assistant administrator level every week with our administrator -- our acting administrator to review staffing progress, progress on buildings, on security and everything else we need.

Second, continued needs: We have the continued need for support for incentives to allow our people to be the most effective on the ground and to stay even longer at post, because, as you know, most assignments are one year in duration. We need secure and timely mobility on the ground and in the air in Afghanistan especially, in cooperation with our PRTs, our military and State colleagues.

We need the closest of coordination with U.S. military, NATO, ISAF military and with the State Department. We have that and we are continuing to work on that through coordination mechanisms which we can talk about later. That goes all the way from training to implementation and planning.

We need closer cooperation with our fellow donors, not just UNAMA but especially, I think, the bilateral donors such as the Dutch, the British and the Canadians who operate in the south, in Helmand and in Oruzgan and in Kandahar provinces. And we have begun in earnest discussions with them about how to coordinate better at all levels of our organizations and in all these countries.

We need more resourceful monitoring mechanisms on the ground, creative, flexible and trustworthy, not only Foreign Service nationals but also other additional third-party mechanisms and technologically creative mechanisms to oversee what we're doing.

On oversight, we value, as Paul Jones just said, having the continued partnership of the inspector general for AID, the General Accounting Office and the Special Inspector General for Afghan Reconstruction, General Fields, in Afghanistan in particular in the latter case. What we do urge is that all of them work in close synchrony and harmony in sequencing the timing of their audit work and their investigation work to get the job done to protect our people's money. We can't be at all places at all times. And our inspectors general and others are very good at assisting us in this. But we have to be careful that our already strained staff are not overwhelmed as a result.

In that regard, I would like to just say that we've worked very closely with Stuart Bowen and the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction. We've invited Stuart Bowen, Ginger, his deputy, General Fields, the General Accounting Office, our IG and others to meet with our task force at AID. They've done that together. They've done it individually. We have made basically required reading of this book to everyone we're sending out to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

One of the lessons in here, for example, has to do with lessons learned from Iraq -- hard lessons in the Iraq reconstruction experience is the importance of listening at the local level and developing from the bottoms up and that's a new approach for us in Afghanistan.

I'll close by saying two things. One is we appreciate Congress's continuing support for AID's development leadership initiative. This is our initiative to double the number of AID Foreign Service officers over the next couple of years so that when David Sedney and I sit down again together five or six years from now, we'll have more AID officers available to serve in these kinds of places in whatever situation we're in five or six years from now.

And on that, I'd like to introduce three of our Americans behind me who are currently serving or are about to go out to theater. One is James Birscheit (sp), who's -- if you could stand up, James -- he is executive officer currently serving Kabul. He's been there almost a year. He hails from Minnesota.

The other is Brian Kertz (sp) -- if you could stand, Brian -- Brian is an example of a Foreign Service officer recently retired, who's agreed to re-up and come back and serve us deploying out to Afghanistan in one of the PRTs from Chappaqua, New York.

And Gene Gibson (sp), who is a democracy governance officer currently serving in Islamabad for about seven months. He hails from Florida.

So I'm very proud of these officers. Thank you, Sir.

REP. TIERNEY: Well, you should be, Mr. Bever. And I want to thank you for bringing these officers with you here today.

>And just to briefly address the three of you: We all understand your services and how critically important it is -- every bit as much as the men and women that are in uniform with armor, with helmets, with guns, things that you don't have. And I think that the American public sometimes doesn't hear about the risk that you take and the separation from family and just how involved your commitment is.

So I know I speak for all of my fellow panelists up here. We thank you. We pay tribute to what you do and it is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Mr. Michener.

MR. MICHENER: Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I am pleased to appear before you today.

Agriculture plays a critical role in the economy and lives of the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan. With the agricultural expertise we bring, USDA is committed to supporting President Obama's efforts to increase governmental effectiveness and enhance economic capacity in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Agriculture will play a pivotal role in implementing the president's counterinsurgency strategy and USDA is prepared to significantly increase the number of highly skilled agriculture experts serving in provincial reconstruction teams and working at regional and national levels in Afghanistan.

I recently traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan at the behest of Special Representative Holbrooke to explore additional ways USDA can contribute to this effort.

Since 2003, over 50 USDA volunteers have served in Afghanistan. USDA PRT members offer expertise in agriculture extension and education; crop production; plant protection; animal health and livestock management; agriculture marketing; irrigation and natural resources management. They build the capacity of provincial host country nationals to enable them to manage their own agriculture reconstruction and development. Working at the ministries of agriculture and education, they strengthen the effectiveness of the government.

I would like to provide two examples of the work carried out by USDA experts serving on PRTs in Afghanistan: A Foreign Service Agency employee from Nevada worked with his Afghan counterparts to install six windmill-powered water pumps. These pumps revitalized a century's old irrigation system in the south of Afghanistan that now provides water to livestock, vegetable crops and fruit trees, replacing the poppies which thrive in dry, rocky soil.

Another USDA employee from the Natural Resources Conservation Service in Maryland worked with his Afghan counterparts to rebuild the nation's only functioning soil testing laboratory at the Agriculture University in Nangarhar Province.

Our advisers display a great deal of satisfaction in their work. Nearly all have helped to recruit other employees to serve on PRTs. Over a dozen USDA advisers have volunteered for extended or additional tours. There remains a high amount of interest and enthusiasm in the department as we receive about four applications for each vacancy on a PRT.

The department stands behind those who volunteer. We provide incentives and benefits based on those provided by the U.S. Department of State and USAID. PRT advisers undergo three weeks of pre- deployment training at U.S. Army Camp Atterbury in Indiana. This training covers medical combat lifesaving, force protection, military- civilian coordination, mentoring and partnering with the government of Afghanistan and general simulation exercises.

USDA also provides a Washington-based orientation program for new advisers. Our lessons learned are reflected in standard operating procedures and PRT handbooks that employees use throughout their service.

The new advisers also undergo an intensive orientation program upon arrival in Washington. Our program mangers in Washington are in frequent contact with the advisers to help with technical issues, provide support with adjustment issues or just to let them know that their sacrifices and hard work are appreciated.

During service, the USDA advisers receive medical care through the State Department medical program or from the Department of Defense -- depending upon location, timing and the critical nature of the need. We facilitate communication with the families of the advisers and provide evacuation in case of critical family emergencies.

A USDA PRT liaison based in the U.S. Embassy in Kabul provides overall management of the program in country. The liaison works closely with counterparts in other civilian and military agencies and ensures smooth interagency coordination for planning and program operations. After serving in PRTs, employees return to their home agencies and the position they held prior to their assignments.

In addition to PRT experts, USDA advisers have provided technical assistance to Afghanistan's ministries of agriculture and higher education. Their efforts include providing oversight for about $16 million under our Food for Progress program that was used to construct provincial agricultural extension offices and teaching laboratories in Kabul University.

During the recent trilateral meetings, the USDA made three commitments to further support our counterinsurgency efforts in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We committed to form working groups in the areas of food security, trade corridors and water management and watershed rehabilitation. We also committed to increase our Food for Progress programs for both countries. Finally, we committed to expand the training under our Cochran Fellowship, Borlaug Fellowship and faculty exchange programs.

USDA is prepared to provide a sustained level of skilled and highly motivated experts on PRTs and on government ministries in Afghanistan. Congressional support for the administration's budget and supplemental appropriation is critical to ensure we can effectively stand up the civilian side of the counterinsurgency strategy.

Thank you for allowing me to testify today. I look forward to any questions you may have.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you very much.

I couldn't help but keep watching you look over at that light like you thought the floor was going out from underneath you if you got the red. Ambassador, I assure you, it won't happen.

MR. MICHENER: (Laughs.) It's my first time, Mr. Chairman.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you. (Laughter.)

You are recognized, sir.

MR. HERBST: Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Flake and members of the subcommittee, thanks for the opportunity to testify.

In today's tightly interconnected world, there is growing challenge posed by failed or failing states and ungoverned spaces. Such areas can become breeding grounds for terrorism, weapons proliferation, narco trafficking, piracy -- (audio break) -- to our national interests.

The steps to successfully meet this challenge on the civilian are not unlike how the military prepares. We need to build the necessary human capacity; we need to develop planning and management systems; we need to train our experts and equip them in the necessary skills for the situations they'll encounter. We need to develop teams and we need to repeatedly exercise those teams to make sure they're ready for the challenge at hand.

At the center of this development -- of this preparation is development of whole-of-government civilian response capability -- the Civilian Response Corps -- the CRC.

As we conceive it, the CRC is to be composed of three components: an active component of 250 full-time first responders from across eight civilian federal departments and agencies; a standby component of 2,000 across those same eight agencies; and a 2,000-member reserve component drawn from the private sector, state and local government.

To date, $140 million has been appropriated to establish, train and equip a 250-member active component and a 1,000-member standby component. The first funds, 65 million (dollars), came to us about seven months ago. The remaining funds -- 75 million (dollars) -- were appropriated two months ago in the omnibus bill.

In the 2010 budget, President Obama has requested for the Civilian Stabilization Initiative $323 million to allow all three of the CRC components to be realized as intended and needed.

My office, the Office of the Coordinator for Reconstruction and Stabilization or S/CRS, operates under the Reconstruction and Stabilization Civilian Management Act of 2008, which calls on the civilian elements of the federal government to work together to promote the security of the U.S. to improve coordination, planning and implementation. The job of S/CRS supports the secretary of State, leading the way on dealing with reconstruction and stabilization crises.

The civilian stabilization initiative is the critical first step to ensure we have the right people with the right skills at the right time. However, making sure that these experts are doing the right things on the ground according to one strategic plan, with full synchronization between civilians and military, continues to be the most complex and challenging task for S/CRS. But the benefits of undertaking this challenge are worthwhile, as demonstrated by S/CRS's thus far still limited work in Afghanistan.

Over 30 of our initial first responders and planners that make up our new expeditionary capability have served in Afghanistan in the last two years. And they have piloted a range of new platforms, plans and integration efforts that will now set the stage for successful civilian increase.

Here are a few highlights of our work to date in Afghanistan.

Our civilian responders pioneered the design and management of the Integrated Civilian Military Action Group, the ICMAG, at Embassy Kabul, which is at the forefront of civilian military integration in Kabul, ensuring that civilian and military are planning together and assessing and acting together at all levels of the mission.

We've also developed a planning system now in use by all of the American PRTs and our military and civilian elements across Afghanistan to ensure that civilian and military plans are put together and executed properly. Thanks to these efforts, there are now plans for civilian operations at each American PRT and at Regional Command East.

We've also developed pre-deployment training for civilian and military personnel deploying to Afghanistan so they can work as a team once they hit the ground in Afghanistan.

We have initiated the first civilian -- (inaudible) -- teams at U.S. task forces that will not be the platform for the upcoming civilian increase.

We have developed a new integrated performance measurement system for subnational levels, which is currently being piloted.

And we have developed new ideas, such as the models for district teams, that would operate under provincial reconstruction teams.

And under Ambassador Holbrooke's direction, we have put together and are leading the Interagency Afghan Election Support Team to provide assistance to Embassy Kabul as it prepares for the upcoming presidential and provincial council elections.

Additional details on all of these items are in my prepared statement.

With the funds that have been appropriated to date, we have hired and identified 338 members of the Civilian Response Corps, and we began last week to train those first members. But the summer, we should be in position to deploy our first members to Afghanistan as part of the ramp-up. By the fall, we should be in a position to deploy dozens of CRC members to Afghanistan or other places.

As Afghanistan so clearly demonstrates, failing states and ungoverned spaces can quickly spawn threats to the security of our nation, its citizens and our interests and our allies and partners. Building the U.S. planning and operations capacity embodied in the Civilian Stabilization Initiative and the Civilian Response Corps will ensure that we are prepared in the future for the challenges that are coming our way.

In the end, (the second ?) will depend on strong, effective U.S.- civilian response capacity. With this, we will ultimately spend less money and lose fewer lives in dealing with the challenge of failed and failing states. Thank you.

REP. TIERNEY: Well, thank you. Thank all of you for your testimony. I think it's been a good platform for us to start some questions on that. And I'll begin the five-minute questioning sessions if I might. But one general question for each of you. Have you all brought in the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction into the planning stages on this? Has his office been brought in along with any other inspectors general so that they know in advance exactly what it is that you are planning so that they can set up their structure to better oversee this throughout?

Mr. Bever, you addressed that a little bit in your remarks. But Mr. Jones, if I start left to right, you can give us any information you have on that.

MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Indeed, we meet frequently with General Fields and his team, both in Washington and in the field. And I think he is completely aware of our civilian increase plans. I'm personally not so familiar with exactly how his team and ours have synced up on that, but his team is a growing presence in Kabul and Afghanistan, and we're very supportive of that.

REP. TIERNEY: Good, thank you.

MR. SEDNEY: Mr. Chairman, as I said, we're in support on this, so we've had no direct contact with the inspector general on this issue.

REP. TIERNEY: Okay.

Mr. Bever, will you reiterate what you said earlier as well?

MR. BEVER: In terms of our own inspector general for AID, the deputy inspector general of the agency sits on our Afghan-Pakistan task force that meets every Friday morning at 10:00, sir. So he's there all the time, and we welcome his presence as our in-house physician, if you will. And in Afghanistan and Pakistan, we look forward to our IG residing there as well in presence, and that's a good lesson learned from Iraq, sir, that concurrent audit.

As for the special inspector general for Afghanistan reconstruction, we've met with General Fields and his staff three times here in Washington, had him meet our acting administrator, and our people in Kabul meet regularly with his staff.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you.

Mr. Michener.

MR. MICHENER: Mr. Chairman, our planning for the increase in USDA personnel in Afghanistan is just now getting under way, so we have not yet been in touch to coordinate with the special inspector general, but we will be.

REP. TIERNEY: You do intend to do that.

MR. MICHENER: We do intend to do that.

REP. TIERNEY: I appreciate that. Thank you.

Ambassador.

MR. HERBST: We have been in touch with the inspector general.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you. Now, Ambassador, while I have you for a second, do you have any numbers where you anticipate on moving through your program and out into the field on an annual basis now that you've got some resources finally allocated to you? I know you're just ramping up, probably this year, I mean, you first started going within the last couple of months. Do you have a plan of how many you expect to pass through the program and be available for deployment on a periodic basis?

MR. HERBST: Yes. We anticipate that by the fall we will have 250 members of the Civilian Response Corps, not just hired but trained and equipped and ready to go. By the end of the first quarter of next year, by March 31, we would expect all 600 of the CRC that we were building with the money we received last fall be ready for deployment. And beyond that, we've received additional appropriations a couple of months ago. We would expect by early or mid 2011 to have the 1,250 members that we are planning put together with the money that has been appropriated thus far, ready for deployment purposes.

REP. TIERNEY: Now, to the extent that we may be fortunate enough to not have all of the active people deployed at any given time, is there a plan for utilization of their services other than in the field, to keep them active?

MR. HERBST: Well, we anticipate that they will train extensively, even after they come back from missions because part of what we have to do is not just to find the right people with the right skills but to form them as teams, depending on circumstances. So creating those teams will be an important part of what we do, even after folks deploy.

But it's also true that they may be available for what I call conflict prevention, stabilization work before a country gets out of hand. And there are, as I think you know, anywhere from 30 to 50 countries which are in the failed or failing-state category. So unfortunately, there's a great deal of work for people with these skills to do. So I expect that they'll be deployed quite regularly.

But it's also true that in order to keep our costs down, we are keeping the numbers of active component relatively small compared to the others so that when we are past these large engagements we don't have lots of people sitting around.

REP. TIERNEY: (And scale down ?). Thank you.

Mr. Jones, can you give me a current estimation of when it is you'll fill all of the billets in the so-called surge? And when I say fill, I mean not with Department of Defense people but with in-house, USAID, State, Department of Justice or Ag people.

MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Our team in Kabul identified a first tranche of 56 critical slots that they wanted filled in June and July. Some of those personnel are already arriving, particularly several from USAID. We have hired virtually all of them at this stage. There are a couple left that we're still back and forth with our embassy, deciding on candidates. And there are all entrained to go through training of various types, which is actually several weeks of training, the package that we give them. So we expect to have all 56 in place in that timeframe.

The balance of the 420 will deploy in phases throughout the next months with the final ones arriving no later than March is our plan. And we feel confident we can fulfill that plan because, as I said, we have no hesitation to turning to other stream of hiring if we find some difficulties.

REP. TIERNEY: I'll have questions more on that, but my time is up for right now.

Mr. Flake, you're recognized for five minutes.

REP. FLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Jones, is there a status of forces agreement in Afghanistan at the current time? That was a problem in Iraq. Contractors didn't know if they were immune to charges or whatever else. What do we have to ensure that we won't have this problem in Afghanistan?

MR. JONES: I'm sorry, your question is the question of contractors?

REP. FLAKE: Is there a status of forces agreement in place in Afghanistan at the current time that clarifies the role of civilian personnel, contractors?

MR. JONES: Of civilian personnel. I'd have to take that. I don't know if, David, you know the answer to that or whether we can take that back. I have some general ideas, but I don't want to speak out of turn.

David, do you have --

REP. FLAKE: Anybody who wants.

Mr. Sedney.

MR. SEDNEY: We do have an outstanding status of forces agreement that we signed with the Afghans. And I'll have to check and get back to you on the date. I think it was 2003.

REP. FLAKE: Could you speak up just a little?

MR. SEDNEY: We do have an outstanding status of forces agreement that we signed, which we agreed to with an exchange of diplomatic notes I believe in 2004, I believe. But the status of civilian under that status of forces agreement I'm not clear on. We'd have to get back to you.

REP. FLAKE: If you could do that, that would be of interest.

MR. SEDNEY: We certainly will.

REP. FLAKE: And Mr. Jones, what type of deployment are we talking about here? How long will the civilians be in theater?

MR. JONES: The civilians that we're assigning, we took a policy decision that we are looking for the civilians to stay a minimum of one year. Some seek to extend, and that would be fine. But each one will be deployed for one year. We actually call this a civilian increase because we don't have a plan to decrease, you know. That's why we sort of avoid the term surge because it gives the impression that this is just for a few months. Actually, we plan to continue this deployment and to fill those slots after one year.

REP. FLAKE: I'm still a little unclear. Mr. Sedney, maybe you can clear it up in terms of where all of these civilians are going to come from.

I know some are currently full time at USAID, will simply be reassigned. Others -- who we're talking about -- contractors that will be hired in-country that will make up some of this force.

What --

MR. SEDNEY: Actually, thank you, Congressman Flake. Let me clarify that. We have special hiring authorities at the Department of State and at USAID to hire direct -- U.S. direct hire employees on a temporary basis. So we will use a mix of -- in the case of the U.S. Department of State -- regular foreign service officers plus individuals who have particular skills that we're hiring temporarily and we've advertised that on USAJOBS and hired them under what's called 3161 Authority.

REP. FLAKE: All right.

Mr. Michener, obviously we see the need with regard to the shifting economies in Helmut Province, where a lot of the work is going to be done. Obviously that's where a lot of the poppy production has moved to. What percentage of this 500 do you expect to be deployed in agriculture, or agricultural experts? I know you probably want more than you're going to get, but what do we expect -- and from the others as well -- the composition of this? How many are going to be legal affairs or democracy building, agriculture? Give me some sense, if you could, of how this breakdown is going to be.

MR. MICHENER: I can speak to USDA's portion of agricultural experts, which is roughly 10 percent of the number right now. But the 421 number that's being floated, it's my understanding that's a living document that's being revisited. That number could increase depending on need. And I also want to stress that USDA is not the sole source of agricultural expertise. There would be USAID agriculture experts as well.

REP. FLAKE: Right, all right. But that's surprising; that's a little smaller than I thought it would be in terms of the agricultural experts.

Mr. Bever, did you want to comment?

MR. BEVER: Yeah. I can just add that, you know, we are entering into a partnership with the U.S. Department of Agriculture to make sure that both the public sector government functions of the agriculture sector are adequately covered, along with the private sector business end of the equation and the infrastructure requirements as well.

We already have some agriculture officers in-country, and we will be adding at least another 16 or more specifically agriculture officers out of the 150. We also have breakouts for the numbers of engineers, the numbers of governance officers to work at local government levels and private-sector officers, as well as what we call general development officers who also can cover agriculture because they've had some background in that area. As the situation evolves, we will bring even more on board if we find that that's what's particularly required. We will concentrate in the south and the east in this regard.

REP. FLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you.

Mr. Foster, you're recognized for five minutes.

REP. BILL FOSTER (D-IL): Thank you. Could anybody say anything about the age distribution of the civilians being deployed for this effort? I mean, is that easy to characterize one way or the other? Are these a bunch of, you know, starry-eyed kids coming out of college; are they a bunch of retired people? You know, what's -- is there any easy way to characterize that?

REP. TIERNEY: Where would you put yourself in that crowd?

REP. FOSTER: What? (Laughter.) I've retired from two careers so far, so I don't --

MR. JONES: If I could -- thank you, Congressman. If I could just begin with that, I personally reviewed all the resumes of all those we are hiring in this first tranche, and I didn't really focus on age, but the experience was quite remarkable. I mean, I think -- in fact in this first tranche, I think virtually all of the candidates at least that are being hired by the State Department through this temporary hiring authority or foreign service officers were already well known to our embassy colleagues in Kabul because they had been in Afghanistan before in some capacity.

A couple of -- you know, and then really a range of different backgrounds, experience from former military, some former academics who had clearly done research in Afghanistan before, and then people who had been deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan. So I doubt any were young and certainly all were very experienced.

REP. FOSTER: Okay. How does the size and scope of this effort compare to what NGOs might be attempting in the area? And are these -- are NGOs viewed as a force multiplier or an annoyance by the people that are having to deal with them? And are we doing everything we can to make maximum use of them?

MR. BEVER: Sir, I can just respond to that and I can also follow on Mr. Jones' comments about the caliber of people we're bringing on board. They are very carefully scrutinized. We have a very careful selection process by teams of people at AID headquarters and the mission who look at who these people are and check their references. They are generally quite seasoned people; even if they're retired they might still be a little starry eyed. But they're not wet behind the ears, and most of them are what we would call battle-hardened, meaning they've worked in civil strife settings or in developing country settings in their own profession.

In terms of NGOs, we see a great opportunity to increase and deepen and expand our involvement with non-governmental organizations. There is a caution there, though, that -- in both Afghanistan and Pakistan -- there is a caution, though, in hitting the right balance because both of the host governments are concerned about how much attention we strengthen the government functions at all levels as well as the non-government functions. And so getting that balance right is going to be a matter of dialogue.

But the NGOs are certain -- Pakistani and Afghan NGOs are certainly very active already and willing to step up to the plate. We have to check to make sure they are accountable and that they use the money which are given as gifts to them, of our people's money, in the way that they are intended to be used. But with that, they have the access on the ground that's needed and the insight. So we will use them even more.

REP. FOSTER: Do you share any of your support or training with the NGO personnel?

MR. BEVER: When a grantee asked for it or we think it's appropriate we will provide them certain kinds of training, particularly if they're here on the U.S. side and haven't' had experience inside Afghanistan or Pakistan. But in terms of inside the country for local NGO groups, we often will have our controllers or contract officers or technical people, as part of the grant, strengthen their ability to function effectively. And so, not only do they help us get the work done, but they're stronger as a result of it a few years later.

REP. FOSTER: Are there Blackwater-type private security contractors used anywhere in this effort?

MR. HERBST: There are private security companies in Afghanistan, and it's a subject of considerable scrutiny, both from our government and from the government of Afghanistan. We don't find -- you know, we would love to not have to rely on private security companies, but we really don't have that option in some of the areas where we have to work.

What we are looking to do, as I indicated in consultation with General Petraeus, is to work as closely as we can with our military to secure the civilians or the areas in which the civilians are working in order to minimize any reliance we have to have on private security contracts.

REP. FOSTER: Okay. Do you have any feeling for the percentage of the military support that you get that comes from private contractors versus actual armed services personnel?

MR. HERBST: For the percentage -- I'm sorry?

REP. FOSTER: You said there wasn't -- in some areas there was not an alternative.

MR. HERBST: Yeah.

REP. FOSTER: But what overall for this effort? Is it 50 percent supported by private contractors or 10 percent or -- do you have any -- venture any kind of --

MR. HERBST: Yeah, I'm not sure I can put a percentage down. (Off mike consultation.) Yeah, it's very small in the field. For a couple of very specific projects we hire private security because our military forces are not in that region where we have to have people. But it's minimal in the field. In Kabul, it's more, you know, where our military is not deployed in the same manner, we have more reliance on private security contracts. But, as I say, our goal is to minimize that.

REP. FOSTER: Okay. And then for actual construction projects, are there private contractors involved in that?

MR. HERBST: In construction of --

REP. FOSTER: Yeah, what are you actually -- I don't know, you know, building something specific, is that typically done through a private contractor or how is that sort of stuff handled?

MR. HERBST: Do you want to address that, Jim?

REP. TIERNEY: Mr. Bever, do you want to respond to that?

MR. BEVER: On the construction work and buildings and so on, both state and AID use private construction companies, both U.S. and local, and Third Country sometimes as subcontractors when there's international competitive bidding. In the case of security subcontractors for the assistance program, some of our U.S. firms and their subcontractors, and in certain cases even our NGOs, U.S. PVOs, have in the past or currently do use some security people in order to keep them safe, both statically and when they're on the move.

This is particularly important in the infrastructure area, which is where we've had the most of our casualties, particularly in Afghanistan. But even in Pakistan with CHF, the murder of Steven Vance and his driver, some of our entities in Pakistan that work under the assistance program are beginning to meet with our diplomatic security colleagues and us to figure out what kind of potential protection they might need as situations warrant. Thank you.

REP. FOSTER: Thank you. I yield back.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you. With unanimous consent, we'd like to offer Mr. Quigley the opportunity to ask some questions. He's looking to be on the Committee. The House hasn't acted yet.

Sir, you're recognized for five minutes.

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the panel.

This is specifically as it relates to the security of the civilians -- you started to touch on this -- but with an increase -- civilians as increased in risk and exposure.

What is the general plan as you enter this next phase for protecting the civilians in, as you might say, a whole new ball game here? And how does it change our plans with private security?

MR. BEVER: Those -- the civilians who are in the field, deployed in the field, will be deploying out of -- they'll be based on military platforms, either in the provisional -- provincial reconstruction teams or the district support teams.

What we've discussed, and there's been great receptivity from our CENTCOM and U.S. forces, American -- U.S. forces components is prioritizing civilian-led missions.

That is, where the civilians at each of these military platforms there will be one designated senior civilian who will integrate directly with the commander and propose, prioritize, missions that they need to do to get their job done -- to get out and meet with local officials, travel in the region.

And there's great receptivity for our military counterparts to prioritize in providing security. So that's our priority, to take that approach, to rely on the cooperation of our U.S. military and not to be hiring private security.

REP. QUIGLEY: So these additional civilians will be in military platforms, and you don't imagine having to hire additional private security at all?

MR. BEVEY: That's our intention. That's right.

Now, the -- there are civilians -- there's also a civilian increase at our embassy in Kabul, which will obviously be provided security by our diplomatic security and our own security personnel.

REP. QUIGLEY: I yield back.

REP. TIERNEY: Please.

REP. : Thank you.

(Cross talk.)

REP. TIERNEY: Mr. Sedney, did you want to add something to that?

MR. SEDNEY: If I could add on the issue of security contractors, the Department of Defense does employ security contractors for some functions in Afghanistan, as it does in Iraq.

Currently, according to the first quarter 2009 census, the Department of Defense has 3,651 host-country nationals -- in other words, these are Afghans who we -- who DOD or DOD contractors or DOD subcontractors hire to provide security for various contracts that the Department of Defense carries out.

There are also 23 third-country nationals and 15 U.S. coalition nationals who are employed by the Department of Defense as security contractors in Afghanistan.

REP. TIERNEY: Well, we probably don't have to go into great detail about the testimony that we've had on this Committee -- Subcommittee and the full Committee -- about some pretty questionable activity and conduct of some of our paid private contractors, particularly in the security area. There was a number of hearings and, I think, a number of reports done.

We have to really make a determination of what's inherently governmental and what isn't. So are there any plans that either Mr. Sedney or Mr. Jones are aware of to increase the amount of security in the State Department -- their own security personnel; there's a division that you have for that -- or Marines or other military personnel so that at some point in the not-too-distant future we'll have all of those inherently governmental security aspects done by people on the United States payroll, or is there nothing happening in that area?

MR. JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

A significant portion of the increase from the State Department side in Kabul is actually an increase in security personnel. I don't have the number right in front of me, but that's a significant focus, in order to help our people get out without reliance on other security --

REP. TIERNEY: In-house security people?

MR. JONES: Yes. In-house security. (Inaudible.)

REP. TIERNEY: Mr. Sedney?

MR. SEDNEY: At the current time, I'm not aware of any plans to add additional security contractors for the purpose of enabling the civilians out into the --

REP. TIERNEY: I guess what my question was not hiring more civilian contractors, but hiring fewer of them. We've got people stationed all over the world here. We've got 1,000 military bases around the world. It seems striking to me that we can't have enough trained Marines and military people to take over that responsibility so that we're dealing with the Afghan population on our terms.

As General Petraeus has said, it makes a lot more sense to have the sensitivity of our personnel in there doing it as opposed to a hired gun whose job is just get people from A to B. And when they get there, they're not really overly concerned about how they did it.

MR. SEDNEY: I'm familiar that there's been a long series of exchanges about this. The point I would make about the numbers that I mentioned is that these are Afghan nationals who are security contractors for those who are providing -- primarily for contractors, subcontractors and sub-subcontractors of the Department of Defense.

So they're not involved in the civilian -- the security surge, and I don't know of any plans for the security surge to have an increase in those amounts. But I will go back and check, (taking an acknowledgement ?) of your concern, sir.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you.

Mr. Jones, are you the person who's in charge of this thing writ large? Are you the one that's going to know how many United States and allied civilians are out there, how they're coordinating their activity, who's doing what, how many people are stationed with the PRTs or other provincial district places, monitoring the progress of this, monitoring how Ambassador Herbst is doing putting people through the pipeline, whether you're going to meet the goals and the numbers that you need, or look elsewhere?

Is that your job?

MR. JONES: Well, let me -- with a lot of help, yes. But if I could just describe a little bit about the structure.

Our deputy secretary of State, Jack Lew, is personally engaged on this issue and has told us that any bottleneck, any trouble that we have in filling these positions go directly to him for his adjudication to make sure that they are opened up.

And he's in direct contact frequently with Undersecretary Michele Flournoy and other senior members of the administration. So we have that element.

Another element that's very important is at our embassy in Kabul. Our -- we have, as I mentioned four ambassadors. One ambassador, Tony Wayne, will be arriving shortly. He's responsible for assuring all of our interagency assistance is coordinated, especially out in the field.

And then Ambassador Joe Mussomeli is responsible for ensuring our interagency management is coordinated, and making sure that the flow of these people is coherent and demand-driven out to the field and that they're supplied as well.

REP. TIERNEY: So it's Mr. Lew, then you, and then those four fellows that you were just talking about.

MR. JONES: We have a whole team, actually, sir. (Laughter.) There's a lot more of us.

But --

REP. TIERNEY: Well, no, but I'm just saying basically we'll -- this Committee'll want to know where to come back to get an -- (inaudible) -- we don't want to drag everybody back in if we don't have to, but we want to go right to the source of people who know the answers on this and be responsible for it.

MR. JONES: Yes, sir.

REP. TIERNEY: So I'm looking at the right office right here?

MR. JONES: Yes, sir.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you on that.

Mr. Bever, one other question we keep having in some of the more delicate areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan as well, as we put more resources in -- sizable amounts of money for redevelopment and construction and -- on that basis.

How are we going to be accountable for that money? A lot of those areas we can't really safely send in some of our civilians to do that kind of accountability work, to assess how the progress is going and whether the work is actually being completed or not.

What are your plans in some of those areas?

MR. BEVER: Thank you, Chairman. It's an excellent question, and it's a continuing challenge for us. I want to be straight with you on this, especially in those highly dangerous areas.

We -- as we increase the number of our direct-hire officers and as we get the assistance we need from either our diplomatic security, RSO -- regional security officer at the post, and/or from the U.S. military in the case of Afghanistan; also to be able to get our people out, we will have more of our offices our there to sort of kick the tires and make sure things are going right.

But we also have in both places independent monitors. We hire other firms and other groups to keep eyes and ears and brains --

REP. TIERNEY: So contractors?

MR. BEVER: Either contractors, or sometimes they're cooperative agreement grantee partners who have the ability to move around the area without attracting attention.

REP. TIERNEY: And how do you assess their reliability and their honesty in that situation?

MR. BEVER: Pretty high. Not completely 100 percent foolproof. Sometimes they miss things, either because of the timing of when they've done a visit on a construction project or something, or other phenomena like that in very hard-to-reach places.

We also use our Foreign Service nationals, which are an extremely valuable asset to the American people in these countries who --

REP. TIERNEY: But even (in those areas ?) -- and I really respect the difficulty you're having here. We were in Pakistan, and even some of the foreign nationals have a difficult time getting up into the areas that we're doing this work.

MR. BEVER: Right. Right.

REP. TIERNEY: So is there a backup plan on that?

MR. BEVER: Well, we also invite concurrent audit by our inspector general, who then in turn hire local auditing firms, who in turn use Pashtun, for example, to get up into the areas.

But in the case of FATA and Northwest Frontier, you have to be from those areas to be credible and to be able to get around safely.

So it is a challenge. We keep working at it. In the case of Afghanistan, we have certain other means which we also like to employ.

For example, when U.S. military travels around, we sometimes ask them to give us feedback -- especially if it's in a combat area -- to give us feedback on how things are going. We don't have those capabilities, of course, in Pakistan, but we're --

We are very mindful of this, sir, and we're looking for technological assets which could help us as well.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you.

Mr. Flake, any additional questions?

REP. FLAKE: Just a few.

Ambassador Herbst, the PRTs, many of them -- (inaudible) -- (are obviously ?) run by our NATO allies. They have different rules of engagement and mission limitations.

How are we going to -- and I know from previous testimony and from visits that many of us have taken to the area, there isn't very good coordination. There is a striking lack of coordination, it seems.

How is that going to change? What will this do -- having a lot more civilians there, what will it do to change the dynamic that we've seen where it gets difficult to mesh our efforts with theirs?

And would you agree with that assessment, by the way?

MR. HERBST: I'm not sure that I'm the right person to answer your question, because while we are doing things in the field in Afghanistan, we believe coordination is very important. And we have also had some contact, a little bit of contact with other PRTs we don't have any formal responsibility for.

I don't know if one of our other panelists would want to take a crack at that question.

REP. FLAKE: (Off mike) -- somebody else on the panel answer that? (Off mike.) Mr. Jones? (Off mike.)

MR. JONES: Thank you. Thank you, Congressman Flake.

Obviously, coordination is a major challenge, and particularly when we're dealing with multiple countries in multiple different structures and models of field presence, provincial reconstruction teams.

Two things. Let me, one , we have begun in Kabul fairly recently, over the last several weeks, an interaction hosted by the United Nations to coordinate better the civilian deployments outside of Kabul, and particularly focused as a point of entry, the Afghan government's request for 650 technical advisers from the international and Afghan community.

That was a good entry point for us to open up that discussion and have it take place much more frankly, and with our increased capacity in Kabul we think we'll be better able to coordinate those discussions there.

I also want to point out in the very important area in RC-South, the coordination actually has been better than elsewhere in the country and has been planned and coordinated from the beginning. And that's where a lot of our new forces will be flowing into.

We're very actively engaged with the Canadians, for example, with -- the Canadians have coordination conferences here that we attend in order to make sure we're linked up.

What we want to move to is areas where we actually train together in greater quantities than we do now, sort of. But there's -- you identify an important issue; we're at work on it. It's getting a little better and it's particularly more effective in the south where we are very focused.

REP. FLAKE: Thanks.

One additional question.

Mr. Sedney, is there any type of -- I know it's different, depending on which province you're in or the area. But how much more of a burden is this going to place on our military there?

I know with PRTs, depending on the area they're in, it requires a lot in terms of escort, in terms of simply being able to carry out their activities, to have the type of military backup that is often required.

Is there any kind of formula that we have that each new civilian will require this much, or is -- how -- should we worry about that?

And then, is the increase in our military presence going to account for that?

First, is there any kind of formula that we know of?

MR. SEDNEY: Congressman Flake, I don't know of any formula. My -- but I'll check and make sure, because I don't know everything.

REP. FLAKE: I know --

(Cross talk.)

MR. SEDNEY: All right.

But my understanding is that the planning for the integration of civilians into the military effort is done based on the situation in the area. So it's different whether it's in a less or more permissive environment. And in Afghanistan, from, say, the Panjshir province in the north down to the provinces in the south, the situations are very different.

In terms of will it put stress on the -- additional stress on the force, yes it will. But it's a stress that we welcome, because in order to carry out the effective counterinsurgency effort, we know we need this joint civil-military effort.

The -- we have right now ongoing, as a result of the president's strategy, a combined civil-military planning effort going on out in Kabul between Ambassador Eikenberry and General McKiernan. It's a very intense look at how we integrate the civilians and the military to do that effectively.

And I would add, along with what my colleague, Mr. Bever, said, this is going to be a dynamic process where we are going to continue to be evaluating that.

Once we have -- once (the field ?) has developed the integrated civil-military plan, I think we'll be in a better position to answer your questions about the factors that go into the decisions to deploy civilians in particular areas.

REP. FLAKE: Thank you.

REP. TIERNEY: Thank you, Mr. Flake.

Let me leave you with one question for homework, if I might. I think probably we don't want to be bringing you back after votes. And they are voting right now, so we don't want to make you come back on that. But I think it's something that would be helpful to this Committee.

President Karzai has recently complained about the current model of the provincial reconstruction teams. He basically thinks that they're inadvertently forming parallel provincial governments, and he has great concern about bleeding off of the impact of the central government.

The former State Department counternarcotics adviser, Ambassador Tom Schweich, has also echoed those sentiments. He called on the United States to replace the PRT model with a model focused on decentralized developmental councils.

Now, my question would be how could we reform the PRT model, or should we reform it -- and if we should, how should we -- to make each team more responsive to the central government, but at the same time making them responsive, as they should be, to the local government, and doing all of that without risking any corruption in the PRT system?

So I leave that -- each of you gentlemen, if you'd think about that. We can supply it to you in writing as well, so -- on that, and ask that you get back to us on that to see if we're planning to do anything.

And it could be the simple answer you think everything's fine the way it is, or you could put some merit to what those objections are that are being raised and how we ought to address those.

I want to thank all of you for your valuable testimony here today. It really is helpful to us in our responsibilities as oversight. We'll be working with the inspectors generals and your offices in the future on this.

Obviously everybody wants this to be a successful effort, and we wish you well in your jobs and your responsibilities.

And again, the three gentlemen that were working with USAID that we were introduced to earlier, again, we want to thank you for your service and hope you take it back to your colleagues in the field, how much their work is respected and appreciated.

Thank you. Meeting adjourned. (Strikes gavel.)

END.

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