MSNBC "Morning Joe" - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "Morning Joe" Interview With Rep. James Clyburn; Mark Penn, Polling Analyst - House Speaker Pelosi's Claim That The CIA Misled Her
Interviewers: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Pat Buchanan, Maria Bartiromo

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MR. SCARBOROUGH: Maria, you are not voted off the island. Maria, you stay right there while I bring in Democratic Representative from South Carolina and House Majority Whip James Clyburn.

Thanks so much for being with us, Jim. Good to see you, as always.

REP. CLYBURN: Always good to --

MR. SCARBOROUGH: I want to want to play a clip of your good friend, another man of color, John Boehner, on Nancy Pelosi. (Laughter, cross talk.) I can -- (word inaudible) -- the president's joke, right?

All right, here's John Boehner.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH): (From videotape.) Lying to the Congress of the United States is a crime. And if the speaker is accusing the CIA and other intelligence officials of lying or misleading the Congress, then she should come forward with evidence, and to turn that over to the Justice Department so it'd be prosecuted.

And if that's not the case, I think she ought to apologize to our intelligence professionals around the world.

(Audio break.)

MS. BRZEZINSKI: All right. We lost Joe's mike. That was so weird; everything went silent.

Joe, are you there? Is it working?

MR. SCARBOROUGH: I am.

MS. BRZEZINSKI: Okay. Start all over again, out of that sound bite.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: Okay. So should Speaker Pelosi apologize to the CIA, Jim?

REP. CLYBURN: Look, Joe, this is all much ado about nothing. I think that John Boehner, the latter part of his statement, which I saw I think last evening, is correct. We --

Nancy Pelosi has been asking for a long time for us to have a commission to take a look at all of this. We saw just last week on NPR Senator Graham saying that he would not put a whole lot of trust in what the CIA was saying because they seemed to telling the Congress what the people wanted to hear, rather than what the facts really were.

So we ought to get to the bottom of all of this, get this off the front pages of the newspapers, get it off of the talk shows. And let's have a commission to take a look at this --

MS. BRZEZINSKI: Oh, Lord.

REP. CLYBURN: -- and see exactly who knew what when, who did what, and why. And that's what I think we ought to be talking about.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: I'm with you.

MS. BRZEZINSKI: Okay. Congressman, this is a good time to bring in Mark Penn, because -- about getting this off the front pages.

Mark Penn. First of all, what should she have done, and what -- this is a mess. This is a mess. What can be done now?

MR. PENN: Well, it is a mess. And I worked extensively with Leon Panetta, and I certainly think that unless Leon felt really passionately about this, the chance that he would go out in this manner as CIA director is zero.

And so at this point, I think Pelosi would be best off just having a do-over here. Just saying, look, it was six, seven years ago. I don't want to contest the CIA. I don't want to divide the country on this issue. And just pull back from the whole position.

MS. BARTIROMO: So should she apologize?

MR. PENN: I don't think she should apologize. I think she should pull back. She should have a do-over in politics, which I've seen when people don't remember things.

MS. BRZEZINSKI: Congressman, does this make sense? Does this seem like a reasonable approach?

REP. CLYBURN: Well, there's absolutely nothing to apologize for. I think that Nancy Pelosi has made it very clear: I support a commission, is what she has been saying.

And that's a kind of a commission that would take a look at all of this and make some determination as to who was saying what, who was doing what, and why they were doing it. I believe that that's the --

MS. BRZEZINSKI: And would that be good for the country?

REP. CLYBURN: I think it would be good for the country, because an independent commission would be very good for finding out exactly what kind of reforms need to be made at the CIA. And I do think that some reforms need to be made.

And that's what Senator Graham was talking about last week. He thinks that we ought to have a process by which we figure out how the CIA ought to be giving advice to the Congress.

Because when you say you can't talk about this even among yourselves, that put members of Congress at a very severe disadvantage. And that's why I (don't ?) go up to those meetings, because of that same reason.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: Pat Buchanan.

MR. BUCHANAN: Congressman, Nancy Pelosi said last week in effect that the CIA has been lying to the Congress of the United States back then. Leon Panetta comes forward, head of the CIA, a close friend of hers, served in the Congress with her, said we have been telling the truth, and we laid out the truth.

Nancy Pelosi backs off, said the intelligence agency people are wonderful. Bush was the one that did it.

Doesn't she have a very serious credibility problem, when even the White House will not step up and defend her?

REP. CLYBURN: You remember a guy named Peter Goss, my former colleague who ran the CIA. Even he said that Nancy was likely told. He didn't say that she was told.

The fact of the matter is Senator Graham, who was there heading this up in the Senate six years ago, he said that he would not put too much stock in what the CIA was saying.

And -- (word inaudible) -- a good role model for all of us who believe in conservatism, was Goldwater, who one time said that the CIA was lying to him.

So this is nothing new. So we ought to just take a look at all of this, take it for what it's worth. Let us move forward.

Let Congress get back to doing what it does best.

(Cross talk.)

(Inaudible) -- the supplemental -- I'm sorry?

MR. SCARBOROUGH: You know, Pat, the Democratic Party is -- I was just saying, Jim, to everybody around the set the Democratic Party is in serious trouble when they seize upon a Lawrence O'Donnell, a crazy Lawrence O'Donnell argument about Barry Goldwater. I mean, the guy is just out of his mind, but -- (Laughter.)

He's asleep, also, in L.A., so we can attack him like this.

MS. BRZEZINSKI: (Laughs.) Yeah, he does --

(Cross talk.)

MR. SCARBOROUGH: But, you know, Jim --

REP. CLYBURN: Well, look, he was one of my favorite conservatives.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: But Jim, I've got to say --

REP. CLYBURN: He wrote The Conscience of a Conservative, one of my favorite books. And I really believe that some of the current conservatives ought to read that book and practice what Goldwater preached.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: I'm with you. I'll bet you've been a big Goldwater supporter since '64.

REP. CLYBURN: (Laughs.)

MR. SCARBOROUGH: So anyway, Jim, Porter Goss himself wrote in an op-ed that he sat slack-jawed as he heard Nancy Pelosi's denials that she knew what was going on.

Porter, of all people -- former member of the intel committee that was in that room with Nancy in September of '02 and then the CIA director -- said she knew.

REP. CLYBURN: Well, let me ask you this, Joe. Why is it that my good friend John Boehner and others like yourself won't come out now and call for this independent commission? That would get the bottom of all of this.

(Cross talk.)

I really believe that if that were --

I'm sorry?

MR. SCARBOROUGH: I'm sorry. We have a delay here. Very sorry.

No, I'm all for the independent commission. I don't think it'll be good for the Democratic Party, because there'll be a lot more Nancy Pelosis out there.

But I'm for the independent commission. I think it would be very good to know what everybody knew and when they knew it.

REP. CLYBURN: Well, we aren't talking about what's good for the Democratic Party right now, or the Republican Party. What is good for the country is what we ought to be talking about.

And what is good for the country is for us to get back to the business of getting people back to work, getting some reforms going, getting people back into their homes, getting good legislation so that we can begin to do something about the energy prices, get to health care and its reform.

That's what's good for the country, and we cannot do that if we keep harping on this issue, which is really inside-the-Beltway stuff.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: Yeah. I guess we -- if she could get one story and stick to it, it'd be so much easier not to harp on it.

Mark Penn, will you call Nancy and ask her just -- I know Nancy; I like Nancy. I've known her for a very long time, had respect for her, worked with her on human rights issues.

But if you could just tell her, just keep one story and stick with it, that would make everybody's job a lot easier.

MR. PENN: Well, look, it's the last story right now that America needs. The administration has a new policy and they're moving forward here, and getting involved in this story takes them back.

They've got a new CIA director, a new policy, a clear direction. I think they need to move forward, and they don't need this story. And I think the best thing for her is to back out of it and close the door on it.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: All right. Mark Penn, thanks for being with us. We'll see you very soon.

Congressman Jim Clyburn, always great to see you. And glad to know that you're a big Goldwater fan. (Laughter.) Conscience of a Conservative, he keeps it on his desk in Washington every day. (Laughter.)

REP. CLYBURN: Believe it or not, but I do. But I do.

MR. SCARBOROUGH: Yup. All right, Jim. Thank you so much.

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