MSNBC "Hardball With Chris Matthews" Interview - Transcript

Interview

MSNBC "HARDBALL WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS" INTERVIEW WITH REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ (D-FL)

INTERVIEWER: CHRIS MATTHEWS

Copyright ©2009 by Federal News Service, Inc., Ste. 500, 1000 Vermont Ave, Washington, DC 20005 USA. Federal News Service is a private firm not affiliated with the federal government. No portion of this transcript may be copied, sold or retransmitted without the written authority of Federal News Service, Inc. Copyright is not claimed as to any part of the original work prepared by a United States government officer or employee as a part of that person's official duties. For information on subscribing to the FNS Internet Service at www.fednews.com, please email Carina Nyberg at cnyberg@fednews.com or call 1-202-216-2706.

MR. MATTHEWS: Congresswoman, thank you. I want you both to listen to this. A newly declassified Senate Armed Services Committee report on interrogations is out now. Committee Chairman Carl Levin put out a statement today that said the following. Quote: "The record established by the committee's investigation shows that senior officials sought out information on, were aware of, training in and authorized the use of abusive interrogation techniques. Those senior officials bear significant responsibility for creating the legal and operational framework for the abuses."

Congresswoman, the abuses. We're talking Abu Ghraib. We're talking the rest -- stacking of prisoners nakedly, humiliating Arab and Islamic men. All of that seems to be within the purview of what came from the higher-ups. What do we do now?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I think what we have to do is we have to draw a very bright line between those individuals that were carrying out orders, carrying out instructions and implementing that policy, and the people who actually crafted the policy and directed those individuals to torture.

I mean, what we did under the Bush administration's torture policies was risk portraying the United States of America as hypocrites, when we are chastising nations around the world for their torture tactics and engaging in human rights abuses, when we were engaging in them ourselves. And it's a stain on America's reputation, one that President Obama has ended.

And now what we need to do, as the House Judiciary chairman, John Conyers, has said we would do, is we need to open up hearings and begin to investigate what the people who directed this policy were getting at and get to the bottom of it.

MR. MATTHEWS: Should we ask Jay Bybee to retire from the court out at the 9th Circuit? He's one of those who approved it and sits on the federal bench. Should he go?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I think we need to take a first- things-first approach, taking a look at who exactly was responsible for these memos; where was it initiated. We need to go through the process. And you're still innocent until proven guilty in America, but it doesn't look very good.

MR. MATTHEWS: Would you draw the line at prosecuting the former president or vice president? Would you draw the line against that?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I would not.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, here's President Obama today -- actually it's from yesterday -- saying he's open to a review of some kind. Here's President Obama.

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: (From videotape.) I think for Congress to examine ways that it can be done in a bipartisan fashion, outside of the typical hearing process, that would probably be a more sensible approach to take. I'm not suggesting that that should be done, but I'm saying if you've got a choice, I think it's very important for the American people to feel as if this is not being dealt with to provide one side or another political advantage.

MR. MATTHEWS: How do we go about this, Congresswoman, investigating the behavior in this regard of the vice president and the president, and possible prosecution, which you discussed there? How do we go about that?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, the first step we need to take is acknowledge that what we're dealing with is torture. I mean, your next guest, Senator Ensign, has actually said as recently as this weekend that the interrogation tactics that were used under the Bush administration's policy were not torture.

I mean, even John McCain, his former Republican presidential nominee, acknowledged and called waterboarding and those other forms of interrogation torture; noted that after World War II Japanese soldiers were executed for engaging in waterboarding and declared it torture. So, I mean, the very fact that we have Republican leaders that are elected in the Congress that are saying that these tactics aren't torture, that's problem number one.

But what we need to -- and I do agree with President Obama, as does Chairman Conyers, it would be best if we can proceed in a bipartisan fashion, establish a truth commission, as Chairman Conyers introduced at the very beginning of this Congress. But as he said today in his announcement, that if it takes too long, then justice and getting to the bottom of this and who made these decisions can't wait, and we're going to need to proceed with hearings in the House Judiciary Committee.

MR. MATTHEWS: Well, if it turns out that those who drew the lines and said it was okay to use waterboarding and other coercive techniques violated the law, and those people who did so include the vice president and the president, what do we do? You say we might consider prosecuting them, but how do we do it? Under what law do we go after them -- under international law, under U.S. law? What do we hit them for, if we do it?

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I think we need to not get ahead of ourselves, Chris. I think we need to make sure that we are examining where -- certainly the buck stops with the president and the vice president. But the question is, did they specifically issue those orders, or were they more general?

I mean, I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves before we start talking about prosecuting the president and the vice president. But we certainly need to examine who and how and why the individuals in the Department of Justice ordered CIA interrogators to torture detainees that were detained after 9/11.

MR. MATTHEWS: But in principle, you have no problem with us looking at the whole potential criminality of the behavior of anyone here in this regard.

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: There is no one that is above the law in the United States of America.

MR. MATTHEWS: Okay, thank you very much, U.S. Congresswoman --

REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Thank you.

MR. MATTHEWS: -- Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida.

Source