MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" Interview - Transcript
Interview
MSNBC "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" INTERVIEW WITH REP. DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ (D-FL)
INTERVIEWER: RACHEL MADDOW
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MS. MADDOW: Joining us now is Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Democrat of Florida. She is a member of the House Judiciary Committee.
Representative Wasserman Schultz, thank you so much for making time for us tonight.
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Good to be with you, Rachel. Thanks for having me.
MS. MADDOW: I have to ask you straight up at the top here, would you support an impeachment inquiry into Judge Bybee, given what we have seen of his legal reasoning in these memos? Does it seem like he may have abdicated his legal responsibilities here?
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I support what Chairman John Conyers of the House Judiciary Committee, on which I sit, has proposed, and that's to establish a 9/11-style commission, an independent commission that would examine the decision-making process that the Bush administration Justice Department officials made in authorizing these tortuous tactics.
I was really pleased to see President Obama release the memos to clearly indicate to the world that the United States does not sanction torture, even if the previous administration did, and to make sure that we shine a light, a very bright light, on what practices we do not condone and that we deem unacceptable.
MS. MADDOW: These memos provide a lot more detail about who authorized interrogation programs. And the president and the attorney general have both said that they don't want the people who implemented any of these policies to bear any sort of legal liability for them. But the question remains about whether Congress itself has enough information to take up a serious investigation of the people who authorized them. It seems like there's not much more to know; it's just a matter of whether there will be action.
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I think there's plenty of evidence for us to examine and review. And I think that the approach that the leadership and Chairman Conyers and our Judiciary members would like to take is one that takes the partisanship out of the process, because really these are very serious accusations. The steps that the Bush administration Justice Department officials took are extremely serious. And I think we can't have the tenor of partisanship at all. And certainly when we conduct hearings in the Judiciary Committee, it's an adversarial situation, even though obviously we do everything in an above-board way.
Making the process really above the partisan process, I think, is the best way to go when it comes to dealing with the decision-making that occurred, and also making sure that, going forward, we don't have these tortuous policies rear their ugly heads again.
MS. MADDOW: Of course, there's always the worry that if it comes down to everybody else having the opportunity to move forward on these and nobody does, and you're there in the House Judiciary Committee and you didn't want to be the ones to move it forward but nobody else is moving forward on it, ultimately there's a statute of limitations on all of these things. And ultimately somebody's going to have to decide that they're not going to let it fall through the cracks, right?
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I really have the utmost confidence that we are not going to let it fall through the cracks. I mean, we haven't -- the independent commission legislation has been introduced. We are in the process of working through how we're going to deal with the situation. It's really -- I mean, the details in these memos are absolutely shocking.
And, you know, look, I mean, one thing I think we have to make clear, Rachel, is that nobody feels sorry for these terrorists and for these detainees. I mean, these were heinous, horrendous, horrible people that no one is shedding tears for. But the bottom line is that we are risking the safety of our detainees by other countries, of our military who are in other countries, by subjecting the detainees that we hold to tortuous measures. And quite frankly, we're being hypocritical if we vocally support human rights but then abandon human rights practices when we have detainees from other countries.
MS. MADDOW: That's the thing about rights is that it doesn't matter if it's bad people or good people. (Laughs.) You're relieved of the responsibility --
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: That's exactly right.
MS. MADDOW: -- of making that determination.
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: It might be inconvenient, but we still have to make sure that we're consistent.
MS. MADDOW: I have a totally unrelated question for you now, because you're in the 20th district in south Florida, and so I have to ask your reaction today to President Obama's call for a new beginning in relations between the United States and Cuba. What did you think about that?
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I think that President Obama has taken some initial tentative steps and extended the hand of diplomacy to Cuba. That has been attempted numerous times by other presidents. And the ball is really in the Castro regime's court, that they have said many times before that they are willing to sit down and talk.
Look, the bottom line is talk is cheap, and it is time for the Castro regime to recognize political parties, to release their political prisoners, to stop charging 30 percent tax on the remittances that Cuban-Americans send over to their families, which is the second-highest source of income, Rachel, for the Castro regime of any other source of income.
So, you know, it's time -- President Obama has taken an initial step. Let's see what the Castro regime does, because you want to talk about human rights abuses; this is a government, a dictatorship, that commits some of the most heinous, horrendous human rights abuses in the world.
MS. MADDOW: Do you think that he should have made changes on those kinds of things that you're talking about now a predicate for having further talks, or do you think further talks are an appropriate way to start, with changing those things being the goal?
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, I would have preferred -- and mine and a number of other members' suggestion to the president was, rather than roll back the remittances completely and allow unlimited remittances, I would have just doubled them, and also insisted, as he did -- and I was very pleased to see -- that pushed the Castro regime to roll back the usury that they charge on those remittances.
But, you know, let's see what happens. We do need to use diplomacy and give it another shot and put the ball in the Castro regime's court and see what happens. But, you know, I'm fearful and concerned that what they're going to do is simply try to lull the world, like they always have, into this false sense of security.
There are too many people that romanticize the Castro regime and the Castro brothers. They arrest 12-year-olds for deciding not to join the communist party. Right now they have Antunez, the human rights activist, who is on a hunger strike, surrounded by state security, and they've been abusing and torturing him while saying publicly to the world that they want to come to the negotiating table and sit down and extend the hand of diplomacy to the United States.
You know, you can't be doing both things. You have to walk the walk while you're talking the talk. And I'm hopeful. I know the Cuban-American community in south Florida and across this country is hopeful that we will finally see some steps taken by the Castro regime and eventually have the sanctions be able to be lifted, because we will eventually see a free Cuba. But we've got a long way to go.
MS. MADDOW: Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, thank you so much for taking time with us on a Friday. Have a great weekend.
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Thank you.
MS. MADDOW: Thank you.
REP. WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Great to be with you. You too.
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