Panel III ff a Hearing of the Economic Development, Public Buildings and Emergency Management Subcommittee of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee - Disaster Capacity in the National Capital Region: Experiences, Capabilities and Weaknesse

Panel III ff a Hearing of the Economic Development, Public Buildings and Emergency Management Subcommittee of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee - Disaster Capacity in the National Capital Region: Experiences, Capabilities and Weaknesses

PANEL III OF A HEARING OF THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE COMMITTEE

SUBJECT: DISASTER CAPACITY IN THE NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION: EXPERIENCES, CAPABILITIES AND WEAKNESSES

CHAIRED BY: DELEGATE ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D-DC)

WITNESSES: JONATHAN SARUBBI, REGIONAL ADMINISTRATOR, FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY; KENNETH WALL, ACTING DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF NATIONAL CAPITAL REGION, FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY; CRAIG DEATLEY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY RESPONSE, ER ONE AT WASHINGTON HOSPITAL CENTER; LINDA MATHES, PRESIDENT & CEO, AMERICAN RED CROSS OF THE NATIONAL CAPITAL AREA

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DEL. NORTON: I'm going to now call the next panel.

I'm going to ask the -- because we've run past where some of you I know expected, I'm going to ask all who have not testified -- Mr. Sarubbi, Mr. Wall, Mr. DeAtley, Mr. Mathes -- to come forward at this time. I apologize for the time it has taken. But the purpose of this hearing was to get on the record what members of Congress do not know.

No one has read the bill. People were about to vote blindly against the security that we have spent billions of dollars to protect. At least no one will be able to say that they did not know if they approved the Ensign amendment.

And we are very pleased to hear from Jonathan Sarubbi, the regional administrator of FEMA, where the Office of National Capital Region is located; from Kenneth Wall, the acting director of that office, which is also in FEMA; from Craig DeAtley, director of the Institute for Public Health Emergency Response, ER ONE at Washington Hospital Center; and finally from Linda Mathes, who is the president and CEO of the American Red Cross.

Could I ask you to testify in that order?

Mr. Sarubbi.

MR. SARUBBI: Good morning Madam Chairman.

I am Jonathan Sarubbi, the regional administrator for the Federal Emergency Management Agency Region III based in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before the subcommittee to discuss today's hearing topic -- Disaster Capacity in the National Capital Region: Experiences, Capabilities and Weaknesses -- and to answer your questions. I am joined today by my colleague Kenneth Wall, acting director of FEMA's Office of National Capital Region Coordination.

In my position as regional administrator for Region III I oversee FEMA's all hazard preparedness and emergency management efforts in Delaware, the District of Columbia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia.

Region III works with our partners in the regional, state, and local levels to prepare for, respond to, and mitigate against manmade and natural disasters.

The regional office is composed of experts in four distinct areas that provide support in our mission and they are; preparedness, mitigation, response, and recovery.

As a part of our mission Region III plays a vital role in the event that a federal disaster declaration is issued for our region, including assisting in the development of preliminary damage reports and providing support for public assistance grants and individual assistance grants.

Let me address a number of specific points of interest to the committee. We partner closely with our colleagues in the office of National Capital Region Coordination. This partnership includes area of risk assessment to support decision making, participating in drills and exercises, and the coordination in response to incidents in the National Capital Region. Should a national disaster -- excuse me -- should a natural disaster occur in the National Capital Region, FEMA Region III coordinates disaster response and recovery under the guidance of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act.

In accordance with the National Response framework disasters are managed locally. Within the National Response framework FEMA Region III provides direct support to Virginia, Maryland, and the District, including assistance with evacuations, sheltering, and other unmet needs.

Each state in the district maintains sovereignty -- sovereign authority and receives support and disaster funding from the FEMA Region III independently.

The Stafford Act directs that the district be treated as any of our 50 states. Stafford Act also equates the position of mayor with that as a state governor and he or she would act accordingly for the purpose of asking for federal disaster assistance.

During an incident within the District, local first responders establish command of the incident and manage the response. FEMA Region III monitors the incident, assesses District needs and provides assistance upon request of the mayor and approval of the president.

On the issue of mass care, the District's Department of Human Services has the lead for emergency support function six. This entity would be responsible for shelter or feeding operations within the District. The American Red Cross of the National Capital Area supports the district's Department of Humane (sic\Human) Services by providing sheltering management teams while Serve DC augments with further volunteer support upon request.

In addition, the District Department of Health utilizes the medical reserve corps and works in conjunction with the department of Health and Human Services to support any medical needs.

With regard to the Capital grounds we are not aware of any formal agreement between the legislative and the executive branches to address disasters on the Capital grounds. In the event of a localized incident such as a fire or a severe storm the local jurisdiction response would normally address the response. The Capital police would be the first to respond to an incident on the Capital grounds and have the incident commander coordinate with other response agencies as necessary. This is in line with the National Incident Management System and the National Response framework.

For a larger event such as a major hurricane where there is a Stafford Act declaration any Capital grounds issues could be coordinated through the Unified Coordination group within the Joint Field office, which the Joint Field office coordinates deliver of federal assistance and certain funds to the District of Columbia.

In conclusion, our disaster capacity in the National Capital Region is robust. Through working with the office of National Capital Region, state, federal, and local entities Region III is prepared to provide the support necessary in the event of a disaster in the National Capital Region. The experiences we have had with disasters in this region are a refinement of our capabilities and lessons learned have Region III properly prepared to respond to a disaster in our region and specifically in the Capital area.

I look forward to answering your questions.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

DEL. NORTON: Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Wall now of the National Capital -- Office of National Capital Region Coordination.

MR. WALL: Good afternoon, Madam Chair.

I'm Tim Wall, acting director of the office of National Capital Region Coordination, which is now part of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

I appreciate your invitation to join my colleague Jon Sarubbi, Craig DeAtley, and Linda Mathes in appearing before the subcommittee today.

As you mentioned in your opening statement, due to the unique nature of the National Capital Region Congress has established the office of National Capital Region to coordinate federal, state, local, and regional authorities for the purpose of enhancing preparedness in the National Capital Region. We do this by working closely with our regional partners, an example of which is our engagement with the National Capital Region's senior policy group, which is comprised of the Homeland Security advisors and chief emergency managers of Virginia, Maryland and the District of Columbia who represent their chief executives and jurisdictions.

I'm a member of the senior policy group representing the Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. The senior policy group plays a key role in sustaining a coordinated regional approach to homeland security in strengthening integrated decision making and planning. It's just one example of the engagement of the Office of National Capital Region. We also work closely with other National Capital Region stakeholders and partners to include local chief administrative officials, public health officials, first responders, emergency managers, leaders from the private sector and nonprofit communities, and many other federal, state, local and regional officials.

Working with our National Capital Region partners, the office provides support in building capacity to respond to an incident in a coordinated fashion. For example, the Office of National Capital Region and other senior policy group members developed a first hour checklist for the National Capital Region to guide coordinated leadership decisions and actions during the initial response to an incident in the National Capital Region.

Significant strides have also been made with regards to interoperability, as well as risk analysis to support decision making by NCR leaders.

Additionally, the Office of National Capital Region plan leads or participates with regional partners in exercises and drills and events that occur frequently in the National Capital Region. These efforts bolster regional information sharing and integrated planning.

During the response to a natural disaster, the office is able to support Region III and the federal coordinating officer. For example, we provide enhanced situational awareness, assist in the coordination with National Capital Region partners and deploy agency representatives to National Capital Region operation centers where needed to augment FEMA and Region III's capability.

The office of National Capital Region's activities allow us to contribute to FEMA's broader efforts to improve and maintain relationships with state and local partners toward the end of working well together in the event of another natural disaster.

I look forward to addressing any questions you may have.

DEL. NORTON: Yes, Mr. DeAtley.

MR. DEATLEY: I previously submitted my written testimony but appreciate in particular the opportunity to share some concise remarks and have brought one additional document that I would request, if possible, to be added to the record.

I'd like to begin my comments today by noting that, in the context of remarks that have been made prior to mine, I think it's important to keep in mind that when laws are broken and weapons are used to inflict harm oftentimes the victims of that crime end up in a trauma center such as the Washington Hospital Center.

I think it's also important to keep in mind too that hospitals, and as we saw last weekend, even nursing homes can become the actual site of that violence.

When talking about disaster capacity given the current climate for change in our healthcare system, I think it's also important to keep in mind that no meaningful change can occur in our system at present that does not including expanding the support given to emergency preparedness both for our hospitals the National Capital Region and across this nation as well as for all other members of the healthcare system.

Since 2002, I have been one of two people responsible for coordinating emergency preparedness at the Washington Hospital Center, more recently at the National Rehabilitation Hospital as well as for MedStar Health, the parent company for both of these facilities. Prior to that time I spent 29 years at George Washington University where I had similar responsibilities.

The Washington Hospital Center recognizes that it is the largest hospital in the National Capital Region, home of the busiest trauma center, emergency department and only adult burn unit. We have special responsibility in the area of emergency preparedness.

Since 1999, with the inception of the project ER One, a unique federally funded project to develop an all hazards, all risks ready healthcare facility, the Washington Hospital Center has undertaken a number of important initiatives to improve our state of readiness. These include but are not limited to introducing an innovative facility design to maximize capacity, capability, and protection, as well as building state of the art ready room to take care of victims from mass casualty incidents from natural as well as manmade causes.

The Washington Hospital Center took the lead in writing and obtaining on behalf of a broad based District of Columbia healthcare coalition, one of five nationally awarded $5 million Department of Health and Human Services coalition partnership grant. The purpose of this grant is to improve the emergency preparedness of the entire District of Columbia healthcare system. The Washington Hospital Center is privileged to be administering that federal grant.

I think it's important to note that the healthcare facilities occupy a unique position in the emergency response framework. If you look at the big six, police, fire, EMS, hospitals, public health and emergency management, hospitals are the only ones that are privately funded. The work we need to do to become and stay prepared and ready to respond to a major disaster must be funded from clinical care or else be supported by government grants and other forms of assistance.

In December 2007 in response to a recognized problem of a siloed and fragmented healthcare system in the District of Columbia and as a result of that $5 million HHS grant, the District of Columbia Healthcare Coalition was founded to create a more comprehensive and collaborative approach to preparedness, as well as response, one that unites all aspects of our healthcare system.

The District of Columbia Emergency Healthcare Coalition now includes all of the D.C. government agencies with healthcare facilities working alongside all of the private sector healthcare organizations in our nation's capital.

In the short span of 18 months the coalition's Emergency Management Committee and associated work groups have conducted a first ever hazard vulnerability analysis for the healthcare system, written a much needed operations plan and accompanying attachments on communication and the role of the public information officer. And soon there will be a healthcare facility evacuation template as well.

We've expanded our hospital mutual aid radio system and included additional partners as part of that system.

We are solving the family reunification problem, that is, how does a family member or friend find out which hospital their loved one has been taken to in the midst of a mass casualty incident. Soon seven of the busiest emergency departments in the city will be sharing real time patient registration data with the D.C. Department of Health during a declared emergency. This is a remarkable accomplishment, one that is equaled by few other cities in our country.

The coalition has also hired a consultant to conduct a security risk assessment for eight hospitals and completed a design -- (inaudible) -- of the Washington Hospital Center campus, a campus that has been identified as one of 24 critical infrastructures in our city.

We also recognize that a mass casualty incident does not respect political or geographic boundaries. We need to and have been increasingly coordinating our efforts with our colleagues from Maryland and Virginia.

Despite the significant improvements and the progress that I've mentioned there are still numerous needs and issues that individual hospitals such as my own and the coalition itself are confronting. These include but are not limited to, for example, the Washington Hospital Center is still seeking $120 million to fund the building of our ER One facility to provide expanded and adequate capacity and capability to deliver emergency care to the people of the District of Columbia and also to be a national demonstration facility for emergency care design, optimized both for daily operations and high consequence events.

The coalition funding will end September 2009 and there is no follow on federal funding being planned. We need that continued funding in order to meet the additional substantive work that remains to be done.

And finally, changes need to be made in state and federal funding regulations. Currently, hospitals are not allowed to receive disaster funding under the Stafford Act and other select federal, state, and local disaster regulations. During the inauguration, for example, hospitals throughout the National Capital Region incurred millions of dollars in expenses and lost revenues associated with supplemental staffing and cancelled elective admitions and procedures but were told by FEMA they were not eligible for relief funding despite there being a presidential declaration.

The fear that some of us has is the disaster within the disaster. Uncompensated expenses related to our response will bankrupt a hospital such as my own because we're operating on a one to two percent operating margin.

Since 9/11 and especially over the past 18 months the healthcare system in our nation's capital has made significant improvements in emergency preparedness. And the Washington Hospital Center feels privileged and pleased to have played a role in facilitating some of these improvements but much more needs to be done.

I'd be glad to answer any subsequent questions that you have.

DEL. NORTON: Thank you, Mr. DeAtley.

And now Ms. Mathes.

MS. MATHES: Chairwoman Norton, thank you for inviting me to participate in this important panel with these great colleagues.

I'm Linda Mathes. I'm CEO of your American Red Cross in the National Capital Region. I am absolutely honored to represent the American Red Cross in the District of Columbia and in Virginia, Alexandria, Arlington, Fairfax County, Price William and Loudoun Counties and in Maryland Price George's County and Montgomery County, Maryland, and all the cities within these counties.

With your permission I would like to submit the entire written testimony and simply highlight right now a few key comments, major themes, in the testimony.

First, a little bit about the background of the role and the experience and the capacity of the American Red Cross in this region. For more than 125 years our nation has relied on the American Red Cross in times of disaster to help provide shelter, food, clothing, emotional, and other support. We also supply nearly half the nation's blood and we teach literally hundreds of thousands of people in lifesaving and emergency preparedness skills. In addition, we support the men and women of the military and their families. In this community we've been engaging the community in carrying out this mission and delivering these services for over 140 years. Our mission is to provide relief to the victims of disasters and help people prevent, prepare for, and respond to emergencies. We carry this mission out absolutely every day, responding typically every day to some two to four disasters, typically fires in this community, like the three we responded to this Saturday. We assisted some 33 people, spent about $8,000 providing for food and clothing and health and medical supplies and mental and emotional support that's needed.

While responding to these every day local disasters we also respond to the larger periodic disasters that have been mentioned today; hurricanes, floods, tornadoes, and those odd ones like the sniper attack, the anthrax attack, a terrorist attack. While responding to these we're always preparing for the next major large disaster that could occur.

In addition, our local Red Cross has a unique opportunity to work with community officials in preparing for and responding to national special security events like the presidential inauguration or memorial openings or presidential funerals.

Our typical role, and the one that's build in to local and county plans and even the National Response framework, is largely mass care, human care, providing the feeding and the sheltering and the bulk distribution of critical supplies.

To carry out all these services we rely on a network of thousands of volunteers. We have thousands of volunteers in this area and about a thousand who are dedicated to helping us with disaster work. We manage large numbers of spontaneous volunteers as well. The example of the thousands of people who were displaced by Katrina coming into our community. There were some 7,000 evacuees who came into our community. We mobilized some 2,000 volunteers to help us here and we deployed some 2,000 to help along the Gulf Coast.

We rely on partnerships and collaboration with dozens of public and private and nonprofit partners to recruit volunteers and carry out these services. Partnerships with faith-based organizations, with the organizations like 100 Black Men, the nonprofit roundtable, Salvation Army, Catholic charities. We work with the board of trade and the council of government. We also rely on having ready access to equipment and supplies to enable us to shelter and feed thousands of people, particularly critical during those first 72 hours up to a week.

Our model for disaster services is collaborative, diverse, inclusive. This is truly all about neighbors helping neighbors.

We've increased our capacity significantly over the past several years. We've focused on increasing preparedness of Red Cross chapters throughout the area, increasing the preparedness of families and businesses throughout the region and we've done this through a variety of education and training programs. We train, in the course of a given year, typically over 100,000 people in important lifesaving and emergency preparedness skills. We focus on extending our outreach again through dozens of public and private and nonprofit partnerships. We play the leadership role with the nonprofit roundtable and at the seat with the council of government, on the emergency preparedness council, with the regional human services working group. We co-chair the nonprofit emergency preparedness taskforce. We reach out the networks of networks to engage our partners and colleagues.

Within the region we've developed region-wide plans to mobilize Red Cross resources throughout the region wherever they are needed. We've been fortunate to receive UASI funding -- UASI has been mentioned several times today -- to be able to increase our supply -- critical supply of cots and blankets and comfort kits, the kinds of essential supplies we need to shelter and feed thousands of people at any time. We've also been fortunate in acquiring charitable dollars and private sponsorships that has enabled us to open up a Regional Disaster Coordination Center to facilitate coordination and communication throughout the region.

Three remaining key points: First, we have a plan in place and we've got experience implementing it. We test it, we drill it, we learn from our experiences and update our plans. Secondly, we've made great progress -- and this is largely due to the kind of collaboration and partnerships each of us has spoken about today. Thirdly, as much progress as we've had, there's much progress yet to be had. Some key areas for further strengthening are: first, volunteers. While we have thousands of volunteers, and they are the backbone of the American Red Cross, we need more. We need people to step up to the plate and get training before the next disaster occurs.

Secondly -- and this has been mentioned today too -- the importance of more families taking seriously the development of personal and family emergency preparedness plans; taking those few basic core actions to prepare themselves and their families for emergencies. We urge more attention and more leadership to encouraging families to do this.

Thirdly, supplies. We have the ability -- we have ready access to the kind of supplies that would enable us to shelter some 15,000 people tonight. We have the ability to feed more than twice that many. We need more supplies. We need more supplies that would enable us to take care of people with special needs and disabilities. We have some; we need more. And, lastly, we need the kind of warehouse and storage space to store these supplies -- and, again, on both sides of the river.

In conclusion, Madame Chairwoman, I'm confident that we are more prepared now, as a local community, a region, and a nation -- more prepared than we ever have been. We've made great progress. You can count on your American Red Cross to do everything we can to work with you, to help the families in this community, and the businesses, and the community in general be as prepared as we can possibly be for excellent response.

Thank you. Thank you.

DEL. NORTON: Well, thank you, Ms. Mathes. And I should thank you for your continuing really indispensible activities here in the District of Columbia, all the time, always available.

Mr. Sarubbi and Mr. Wall, you heard the testimony I presume concerning interoperability. Were you aware of this interoperability, and to what extent does this -- is this region-wide interoperability?

MR. WALL: Yeah, I'd like to address that. We were aware that there are legacy systems that exist still in the National Capital Region.

DEL. NORTON: Well, Mr. Wall, let me ask you, before you go any further --

MR. WALL: Yes, ma'am.

DEL. NORTON: -- how much money have you received -- you, the region -- as a region, our money comes straight to you first off -- how much money have you received from the federal government since 9/11?

MR. WALL: The National Capital Region through the Urban Areas Security Initiative grant has received about $335 million since the -- I believe the first round in 2003.

DEL. NORTON: Now, of that, how much money has gone to systems for interoperability?

MR. WALL: Specifically for voice interoperability radio systems, I believe Chief Delinski mentioned the radio cache -- we have 1,250 radios positioned around the regions for catastrophic events to provide some of that interoperability. About $5.5 million has gone for purchase of those radios to maintain --

DEL. NORTON: So who is interoperable under what you're describing there as various devices?

MR. WALL: The caches that I'm describing were purchased by the region to assist with the jurisdictions that aren't in a full operational state right now, including federal responders such as Capitol police, as the chief mentioned, and other local jurisdictions. In addition to that, I believe about $6 million from the regional Urban Area money was also provided in support of Prince George's County to help them with their interoperability challenge as well.

DEL. NORTON: Mr. Wall, is there any plan to have a -- first of all, I appreciate what you've done to fill in the blanks there, but in light of the fact that even the Capitol police can't talk with the DC police, has -- have any funds been set aside -- are we in the process of making the National Capital Region interoperable one with another?

MR. WALL: Yes, ma'am. I believe we are. I think we're taking aggressive steps to do that.

And one thing that I would like to raise, just so we have in context the state in interoperability -- the Department of Homeland Security a couple years ago went to urban areas around the country and did an interoperability test, and the National Capital Region was one of handful of jurisdictions that received the highest marks for tactical-level voice interoperability. So in terms of where we are with the rest of the nation, through the systems that we have in place, both legacy systems, both in systems that connect legacy systems to other systems, you know, we do have that tactical interoperability -- voice interoperability.

DEL. NORTON: Mr. Wall -- and I think you've done exactly the right thing. Given what I take is a much larger expense for complete interoperability, I must start though from the hit on the Pentagon. From the description, I believe it was the chief of -- Mr. Herron -- of how they had to just hand out whatever they had then. And I must ask then, therefore, is there a plan and has any money been set aside to make the National Capital Region, where the bulk of the federal presence is located, fully interoperable quite apart from what you have? It seems to me, quite -- done quite well to fill in the gaps pending what I still haven't heard. Is there a plan to make the region fully interoperable?

MR. WALL: I will say, yes, there is a plan, but understanding that when we're talking interoperability in the National Capital Region -- we have resources that are available to our state and local responders, and that process has worked very well; we've put a lot of resources into that.

DEL. NORTON: So the money that went to state and locals, they have tried to use for that purpose. What would it take for all of them to be a part of an interoperable system so that you wouldn't need little radios and the rest that you've already done to in fact make it possible to talk among yourselves?

MR. WALL: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understood.

DEL. NORTON: What would it -- what would it take, either in terms of logistics or funds, to go beyond what you have done since 9/11?

MR. WALL: It would take some resources for some federal responders so they can come up to the same level of capability that our state and local --

DEL. NORTON: Are you satisfied that if there were an event with what you've been able to do -- and I commend you for what you've been able to do -- that there would be secure systems that you could talk one to the other today?

MR. WALL: Yes, ma'am.

DEL. NORTON: Who owns those radios or other devices you're speaking about?

MR. WALL: The devices that I'm speaking about and the radio caches are owned by the region, if you will. They were bought with regional funds. They are managed by Fairfax County, Montgomery County and the District of Columbia. So they maintain the radios, they program the radios, they deploy the radios, wherever the need --

DEL. NORTON: If you are -- if your testimony is that you are satisfied that the devices of various kinds that you now have on the ground are secure and interoperable, why do we need interoperability at all? Or do we? Perhaps you're testifying we don't need interoperability?

MR. WALL: No, ma'am. I'm not testifying that we don't need interoperability. And to the point made on the earlier panel, I think there are strives that we still can achieve to increase our interoperability. What I'm saying is we have a baseline of capability today that is -- was developed by the region, by the public safety folks in the regions, the decision process up through their chief executives that sized what we have now and the capability and the plan so that we have today interoperable communication systems.

DEL. NORTON: All right. Are you satisfied with what Chief Nichols and the chief of police of the District of Columbia have on the ground in terms of the way they do interoperability?

MR. WALL: I can't speak specifically to the state of the Capitol police so I would have to get back to you on --

DEL. NORTON: Well, what do you think of the fact that most of the officers I asked at the table -- I don't think one of them knew that hundreds if not thousands of people were stuck in the Third Street tunnel -- didn't know it, even though they had been funneled there by what seems to me to be a competent decision on the part of the police and other police at the other end of the tunnel seeing these people come even though they had tickets that they were waiving in the air -- kept them there. How do you justify that kind of -- excuse me -- "interoperability," if that's what they were supposed to have had, given their testimony that none of them even knew about it at the time?

MR. WALL: I don't justify that situation and --

DEL. NORTON: It's because -- I ask you about that because it is a real life example. We have very few real life examples, and that was a tremendous success. But here is an in-time example of no interoperability when we had more people in the District of Columbia that at any time in the history of the nation's capital. So when you say we've got these devices on the ground, you would have expected of all time, they would have been working during the inauguration. So I'm left to understand how that could have occurred, that even Capitol police one end of the tunnel didn't know that other police had in fact funneled people through the tunnel, and others were completely in the dark including the commander of all of the forces -- the military forces who were here. So I'm not -- I'm not understanding interoperability with these devices that you have on the ground.

Could it happen again? I guess since you say, "Hey, we got these devices," what is to keep that from happening tomorrow if in fact we have people in the Third Street tunnel?

MR. WALL: I would say my understanding of exactly what happened is very limited, that there's -- I think the takeaway from --

DEL. NORTON: The only reason I pressure you, Mr. Wall, is that you have testified that what you now have is secure and you haven't even said you've requested for interoperability is secure and does in fact give you the ability to operate as you're supposed to operate. It's only in light of that question that I'm putting these questions before you, because I got this real life example that I got to account for. And I've got the fact that this could happen again and I don't have any way to know what I, as a member of Congress should be doing, what I should be asking for in the light.

MR. WALL: I'm not sure --

DEL. NORTON: Maybe, Mr. Sarubbi, your superior has some idea.

I need to know, could this happen tomorrow? Are you satisfied with what's on the ground? This is the National Capital Region. We have a real life example from 9/11 of 2 million people here, thousands stuck in the tunnel, and Mr. Wall has put together the best he can with the money he's had. And I want to know why that didn't work during the inauguration and thousands of people were stuck in the tunnel.

MR. SARUBBI: Well, our role in FEMA is to prepare first responders to respond to a disaster and also to assist them in responding to a disaster by providing direct federal assistance and -- as well as funding. So I think your questions that you're asking are perhaps a little bit outside my purview in terms of --

DEL. NORTON: Mr. Wall reports to you, sir. I'm trying -- and he -- it's an office in FEMA. We set up a special office -- at first it was located just in the office. Then they moved it under FEMA. Now, Mr. Wall is only a coordinator. He's coordinated, sounds to me, as best he can, and yet he's unable to tell me whether or not if you had people stuck in the Third Street tunnel, the system he's put in place would work interoperably so the people at one end of the tunnel would know what people at the other end of the tunnel were doing. Therefore I don't know what to ask Congress to do, what to tell my colleagues -- I'm left here with no answers. Somebody's got to tell me what to do so there's not another Third Street tunnel event.

MR. WALL: Madame Chair, if I might just -- I perhaps gave a bad description of what my role is and it lead to some sort of misunderstanding. The interoperable communications that I was talking about funded through the Urban Area is state and local capability based on state and local decisions and plans. We as a coordinator support that process and make sure that, you know, from -- the federal, state and local people are part of that process and have awareness into it. But I don't have -- it's not the role of the office to put in place interoperable communication for an event such as the inauguration.

DEL. NORTON: I understand the difference between an operations office and a coordinator, but you are the coordinator. You're the only one who's supposed to know what's at one end of the tunnel and what's at the other so you can tell the others what it is they have to do.

MR. WALL: Well, I think that assumes that we have a tactical level operational role, which our office does not.

DEL. NORTON: So do we have a void there? Nobody knew what was happening in the tunnel, and nobody's able to tell me who should have known or what we should do about it.

Can I ask you to do this, Mr. Wall?

MR. WALL: Yes, ma'am.

DEL. NORTON: I have no complaint about what you've done given the resources available to you. I've had to sit here and listen to the chief of the Capitol police say he can't even talk to the chief of the largest police officer in his very jurisdiction -- that is to say, the District of Columbia. Then upon further examination of witnesses, they say they can't either talk. And yet you've testified that you've got these devices that enable people to talk, they're fairly secure, but you've not been able to tell me that there've been conversations that tell you that these devices enable you to be interoperable in the Third Street tunnel again should an event occur there. I have to assume an event will occur there. It's not my job to assume that this is the last event in the Third Street tunnel or some other tunnel. We have nothing but tunnels in the District of Columbia. It is my obligation to ask you to meet with the members of the region to discuss interoperability and within 30 days indicate to us whether or not you believe in the event of a event in the tunnel or for that matter, in WMATA, which is also in essence a tunnel, whether you could communicate one to the other and what it is -- regardless of a request for funds, but what it is you would need in order that police even in the same district, the District of Columbia, can talk to one another and certainly across the district.

We're not going to be sitting up here having another event and people didn't even tell us what to do -- or another Third Street event even warned that you were not interoperable. That's why we feel so strongly. I lost three school children among other residents in this -- among these 184 people and we need more information on interoperability so that in my role as a member of Homeland Security Committee, in my role as chair of this committee, which has the major jurisdiction over FEMA, I can know what it is to tell my colleagues is needed.

Now, Mr. DeAtley, you testified that under the Stafford Act, the hospitals weren't even -- some of them weren't even eligible to be reimbursed. Now, first of all, I'm told -- let me ask you this question to precede it -- what hospitals in the District of Columbia are for-profit and what hospital remain nonprofit? Are you aware of that?

MR. DEATLEY: Generally speaking, yes, ma'am. The three for- profit facilities that I am personally familiar with are George Washington University and the specialty hospitals of Hadley and Capitol Hill, and actually I think there's a fourth that would be United Regional. The remaining facilities --

DEL. NORTON: You say, United Regional -- that's greater southeast.

MR. DEATLEY: Greater Southeast, yes, ma'am.

The remaining --

DEL. NORTON: How about Metropolitan Hospital Center?

MR. DEATLEY: The Larson Hospital Center is a not-for-profit; NRH is a not-for-profit. Those other facilities in the system, if you will, which number now I believe about eight others are all not-for- profit, is my understanding.

DEL. NORTON: Well, Mr. DeAtley, I've been informed by staff that one of the reasons -- and this is an absurdity -- this is why people need to tell us and why I'm pressing Mr. Wall and Mr. Sarubbi to get us the appropriate information -- I am told that the Stafford Act provides for funding for nonprofits. Isn't that ridiculous?

MR. DEATLEY: Does not --

DEL. NORTON: For 25 years -- I mean, for nonprofits only. For at least 50 years you've had hospitals turning from nonprofit to for- profit. Here we have some of the biggest hospitals in the District of Columbia now for-profit, and I'm sitting up here with the major jurisdiction over the Stafford Act, not even knowing that I should have requested a change in the Stafford Act to request a change in medical funding and medical operations today when they are often owned, even if they're connected with universities, by a for-profit entity. And I do want to thank you for that testimony because it's another one of the absurdities of how easy it is for the bureaucrats to simply answer when you ask for funding, "Sorry, we only fund for a profit," without coming and telling us about that. Any member of Congress will today have for-profit hospitals that yesterday were nonprofit. So forgive me for not knowing that, and that is a change I expect to request in the Stafford Act upon finding more information about it.

Ms. Mathes, I am aware of the extent to which you are dependent upon volunteers. I need to know how many of your thousands of volunteers live in the District of Columbia.

MS. MATHES: We'll be happy to follow up with you to give you some precise numbers. The figures I quoted to you -- several thousand volunteers who work with us in this region -- that figure can be broken down according to how many are in the District and how many are in other parts of the region. If you would permit me, I'd like to follow up and give you that level of detail. Do you need more?

DEL. NORTON: I thank you, and I'm aware that there's great generosity in sharing volunteers across regional lines --

MS. MATHES: Yeah.

DEL. NORTON: -- but I would -- in the event of an event, getting to the District if you were a volunteer who resided in the region might be difficult. And your own people might be asking you to give aid first and foremost there, so we really do need to know the breakdown of these volunteers. I'd like it for the District of Columbia, Montgomery County and Prince George's County, and the other regions in the National Capital Region, if you will.

Have you had any mock exercise here, either for evacuation or any other event, Ms. Mathes?

MS. MATHES: We have participated in numerous exercises with our colleagues at the table and colleagues around the region -- exercise and drills in the District and elsewhere.

DEL. NORTON: Any involving evacuation?

MS. MATHES: I'd like to -- typically the exercises and drills involve a particular type of incident. I would like to get back to you on a precise answer regarding if any of them have regarded evacuation.

DEL. NORTON: One of the things I'm most interested in, Ms. Mathes, is whether, in the event of an evacuation -- because absent some kind of event with gases so noxious as they were being released all over the District of Columbia, one could imagine a situation where instead of evacuating to Prince George's County, which has limited capacity, as you heard in prior testimony, one might evacuate to other sheltering places in the District of Columbia such as the armory, such as large places such as the Verizon Center and the rest. Are those places considered places for evacuation? In other words, for sheltering within the District of Columbia, what would those places be, please?

MS. MATHES: We have identified quite a few shelter locations in the District of Columbia and elsewhere. They're typically schools, some churches, some other organizations. We've identified some 56,000 spaces -- again, throughout the region -- but I can follow up with you to provide a specific number of those within the District of Columbia. We have surveyed them to make sure that they meet some basic criteria for being able to accommodate the immediate and emergency needs of people.

DEL. NORTON: We would very much appreciate those numbers.

Mr. Sarubbi and Mr. Wall, have there been any discussions within the region of differences in gun laws and capacity in the event of a gun event in this city or region?

MR. SARUBBI: Well, again, Madame Chairman, our role within FEMA is to provide support to our state and local partners --

DEL. NORTON: (Inaudible) -- let me ask Mr. Wall since he's a coordinator.

MR. SARUBBI: Okay.

DEL. NORTON: Have you assumed, Mr. Wall, that all have different gun laws, and yet if there were a spraying, such as of a motorcade, where dignitaries travel daily or an event involving guns, have you assumed that there are different gun laws and how you would handle such an event? Have there at least been discussions on a coordinating level of that kind?

MR. WALL: I have not been involved in any conversation of those --

DEL. NORTON: How would those discussions have occurred, sir, if they occurred at all? If not within an office whose job it is to do coordination, where and with what forum would they have occurred?

MR. WALL: As I said, I'm not aware of discussions that have occurred.

DEL. NORTON: But I asked you to inquire -- go ahead.

MR. WALL: There are forums, as mentioned before, at the Metropolitan Washington Council of Government, where chiefs of police and our law enforcement folks from the region get together and talk about law enforcement issues. I would imagine that such a discussion would happen in one of those forums.

DEL. NORTON: As a coordinator, I would ask that if such discussions occur you be informed of them so that you can know that such a -- I mean --

MR. WALL: We just --

DEL. NORTON: -- it's hard to understand what the role of a coordinator is if not to at least understand what is being discussed among the various parties he coordinates.

DEL. NORTON: Yes, ma'am. And we do have representatives in each of those meetings. And what I'm saying -- to my knowledge, the specific discussion that you mention has not occurred.

DEL. NORTON: In light of the fact that the testimony here has been that a gun attack would be more likely than any other attack in the District of Columbia today, given risk analysis, could I ask that you assure this subcommittee that such discussions do in fact occur?

MR. WALL: Yes, ma'am.

DEL. NORTON: I appreciate it.

Mr. DeAtley, ER ONE has been of major concern to me. There are -- it would be the only system capable of receiving people who were contaminated and of decontaminating them in large numbers. You have apparently received some funds -- $5 million from HHS to improve emergency preparedness. Were any of these related to the so-called ER ONE, which would of course be a demonstration project but would also be such a facility here in the District of Columbia to handle contamination of people in the region?

MR. DEATLEY: No, ma'am. The coalition's focus primarily has been across the spectrum of the health care facilities. One hundred thousand dollars of the $5 million is being spent on developing what we refer to as the (ceiling ?) membrane concept. That would be studying the airflow using a revised filter or ceiling tile being put strategically in rooms that would isolate and contain contagions, if you will, but that's a concept development. The rest of the money is going to a broader coalition set of deliverables than decontamination.

DEL. NORTON: So most of the money -- to decontaminate people, for example, you're the closest hospital or one of the closest hospitals, straight up the way from the Congress, from the Supreme Court. Most of the money to do decontamination -- if there was contamination -- for example, some kind of contamination got set loose in the Capitol or in the Supreme Court or in the White House -- you do not have the funds presently to decontaminate individuals -- officials, residents and the like?

MR. DEATLEY: All of the hospitals in the District of Columbia and the National Capital Region, including the Hospital Center, have spent their own monies to a point in building their current capacity. That initial outlay of funding and its sustainment cost has been supplemented periodically by other sources of funding, including a grant which is currently in place to focus just on mass decontamination where hospitals and hazardous material team personnel are working together to do a gap analysis -- that's been completed to purchase equipment, to fill the gap, and once that equipment arrives, to initiate training to use that equipment so there can be a greater sharing.

That all having been said, additional funding support would be keenly appreciated by hospitals, especially to sustain if not to expand our current capability.

DEL. NORTON: Well, as important as it is -- indeed, it's vitally important local hospitals be able to do decontamination, what's the point of ER ONE as the major facility for decontamination?

MR. DEATLEY: Well, ER -- the Washington Hospital Center, as I said previously, is the largest hospital in the National Capital Region. So being the largest facility, having the busiest ER and the only adult burn unit, we fully expect that in incidences throughout the National Capital Region, we will get a large percentage of that population coming to our facility. ER ONE --

DEL. NORTON: Would the plan be to direct to the extent possible, if ER ONE were to become fully operative, that such patients be brought to that facility as opposed to other facilities?

MR. DEATLEY: Well, we're not trying to advocate for taking patients away so much as we are trying to be as a facility prepared for the unusually large number of patients that we would expect to see because of who we are and where we're located. ER ONE is all about taking a concept of what the ideal facility is to be designed like to now request funding to build that facility, to have that enhanced capability, while at the same time serving as a national model, a study place, if you will, for further developing scientific approaches to some of these ongoing problems.

DEL. NORTON: With the secretary -- the first secretary of HHS under President George W. Bush, I came to the Washington Hospital Center, sat with your personnel and heard very impressive -- had a very impressive briefing of what ER ONE would look like and how it would operate. As I understood it, the Washington Hospital Center was prepared to invest considerable funds on its own into that center. Could you discuss that, please?

MR. DEATLEY: Yes, ma'am. I'm not the one who's ultimately in charge of that design, but from my perspective of being one of five directors of the institutes that constitute ER ONE, I know that the Washington Hospital Center had, particularly early on, spent significant sums of its own operating capital to fund an improvement in the emergency department itself, and then using funding that came from the city and from the federal government to build what we now have as the ready room. And what we have built from that is additional funding to do the first and the second phase of the ER ONE project, which was to take a subject matter group of experts to define what should we be doing, how better could we be doing it -- that was phase one -- then working with architects to design the facility capable of operationalizing those concepts. And that leads us up to this current phase three where, with that additional funding to match what the Washington Hospital Center and MedStar Health is willing to commit to build --

DEL. NORTON: Well, Mr. DeAtley, if the funding were available, would you be prepared to start -- with the design work having been done, as I hear your testimony, would you be prepared to start building such a decontamination facility in the District of Columbia?

MR. DEATLEY: We would be anxious and quite willing to proceed as quickly as possible.

DEL. NORTON: Mr. DeAtley, would you within 10 days get to this committee a record of the funds from Washington Hospital Center -- nonfederal sources -- District of Columbia, Washington Hospital Center and other nonfederal sources that have already been committed to or would become committed if the federal funds were available?

MR. DEATLEY: Yes, ma'am. We'd be glad to.

DEL. NORTON: Ms. Mathes, we understand that the Red Cross is indispensible. We've seen you operate so often giving food and shelter. Do you give cash to victims of disasters -- of natural disasters, or for that matter other disasters?

MS. MATHES: We do provide assistance to family members to assist in their purchasing the kind of food and clothing and health and medical supplies they need.

DEL. NORTON: What is the extent of your federal funding in the District of Columbia? How much of your funds come from federal sources; how much -- what percentage from private sources?

MS. MATHES: Virtually all of our funding comes from private sources. We are totally dependent upon people giving of their time and their money to make Red Cross services possible. We have applied a couple of times in the past few years for the Urban Area Security Initiatives funding and have been fortunate to receive some funding for equipment and supplies, but otherwise it's the people of this community who are making our services possible.

DEL. NORTON: And is that in the event of a natural or manmade disaster as well?

MS. MATHES: Yes.

DEL. NORTON: It's important to put that on the record because people see the Red Cross on the job so often when there is a natural disaster such as the one we just had in North Dakota and Minnesota, Kentucky, and they just figure you're one of us. (Laughs.) And it's important that the record know that's one of you. (Laughs.)

MS. MATHES: Yes.

DEL. NORTON: That is to say, that's the people of the United States of America, and we are grateful for those contributions.

You have testified, Ms. Mathes, that approximately -- there are approximately 55 volunteers to each paid staff member in the National Capital Region. I don't know how to evaluate that compared to other regions. Is it high or low compared with other metropolitan regions?

MS. MATHES: Thank you. I -- we'd like it to be higher. Again, back to the important role volunteers play --

DEL. NORTON: How does it compare with New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and the like, for example?

MS. MATHES: Madame Chairwoman, I'm not certain of their percentages, their ratios. We find it very important to track that ratio. Not all of our colleagues do. I'd be happy to follow up and report back to you on that.

DEL. NORTON: It would be very important for us to be able to say to our region how we compare with the other regions. You heard me name four other cities, which really means regions: San Francisco, Chicago, and -- what am I leaving out? -- New York -- how could I? -- all of whom are in the top four. It would be important for us to know what the ratio of volunteers here are compared to there.

MS. MATHES: I'd be glad to follow up.

DEL. NORTON: Mr. DeAtley, there is a District of Columbia Health Care Coalition. Who are they, and who is responsible for calling that coalition into action?

MR. DEATLEY: The coalition was created as a result of that HHS grant that I spoke about earlier. It's a combination of all of the city government agencies that have health care responsibilities coupled with all of the other private sector health care organizations. We've never seen such a coalition in my 36 years of working here in the city before December of 2007.

Insofar as the action is concerned, its presence is felt on a daily basis. By that I mean there's a duty officer, for example, that's standing watch, representing the coalition, working with --

DEL. NORTON: Is that a duty officer in a particular -- every particular hospital?

MR. DEATLEY: No, ma'am. That's one duty officer. There's 13 of us that volunteer to take this weekly tour of duty, if you will --

DEL. NORTON: Rotating.

MR. DEATLEY: Rotating responsibility. There's a primary and a backup. There is an additional source of volunteers to, if an event were to happen in the city, we could activate, depending upon the situation, what we call our Health Care Coalition Response Team to work with that duty officer to support the District of Columbia -- principally HSEMA and DOH -- to deal with health care system delivery- related problems.

But the core of the effort, quite candidly, is the Emergency Management Committee that's meeting every two weeks that represents all -- has volunteer committee members from all of the member organizations to do the development work, the policies, the procedures. We're right now beginning to plan a citywide exercise to be held in June, all in an effort to improve our preparedness.

DEL. NORTON: Indeed you presaged a question. I want to know if ER ONE has ever had a test run of capabilities, or are you waiting for the funding?

MR. DEATLEY: No, ma'am. ER ONE -- the Washington Hospital Center stands ready to respond to an emergency right now. We have a decontamination capability. We train our personnel. We have the equipment to at least start that effort, so it's not about having no capability. We're talking about improving that capability.

DEL. NORTON: If indeed there was some kind of contamination, how many people in the District of Columbia or region could you handle today?

MR. DEATLEY: One, I would like to reiterate that it would not be a single facility that would be successful; it needs to be a combination of facilities. But in our particular case, particularly during what we'll call prime time business hours -- up until 8:00 at night -- we could process with our current staffing and equipment, for at least a three-hour period of time, roughly 100 critical patients an hour and 200 noncritical patients. That's the most that we could do. Lesser staffing, off hours, then that would begin to drop off.

DEL. NORTON: Now, does ER ONE assume that in the event of a event involving contamination that some hospitals, at least, for example -- you're located in Northwest Washington -- might be able, given how you share apparently and have your duty officer and the rest -- might be able to direct, despite some capability on their own, that patients be taken to the larger capability at ER ONE -- for example, Howard University Hospital, which is close by; for that matter, Walter Reed, which is close by; some of the other hospitals, perhaps -- does the existence of a very special hospital with larger capacity than others assume that there would be some capacity to take referrals from others in the event of a -- capacity, rather than do what you do now, which is everybody's on his own?

MR. DEATLEY: We're working hard with DC Fire/EMS and their hazardous material team officials for a situation like you describe to try and ensure that facilities are not brought patients in excess of their current capability. Would we at the hospital center expect for an incident in the city to receive more patients than the other hospitals? That's entirely plausible, and we're trying to prepare for that possibility, most definitely.

But I would like to reiterate, the strength of the system is not having one that can do it all. It's the sum of the parts that we need to struggle -- to continue to struggle to improve upon.

DEL. NORTON: That's a very important point, but I asked this question because to the extent that the federal government is supposedly paying for a central facility which is a facility for demonstrating to the entire nation and a facility for the District of Columbia and the region, we are -- the Congress is likely to expect some specialization if federal money is going into such an activity, given, but fully understanding precisely what you've said -- we'd also expect everybody to be able to handle patients as they receive them.

MR. DEATLEY: If I may follow up on that comment, though --

DEL. NORTON: Yes, please.

MR. DEATLEY: While we're talking about decontamination as one aspect, I would also point out that the ER ONE project, the concept design is about treating patients of a variety of different problems -- that's whether it would be trauma from an explosion, biologic in nature, as well as the contamination from a chemical or radiologic incident.

DEL. NORTON: Oh, that's an important point as well. On the other hand, it's the contamination point that I think most -- would most interest the federal government because there you'd have to have not only the people who do what you do every day -- look, we have a lot of gun trauma. When -- if somebody would -- if we have an explosion involving someone, somebody who works in a trauma emergency room would know how to handle that. But I am not certain that the same capability throughout the region would exist if some unknown substance -- first of all, it would be unknown. Secondly, it would be dispersed around the region and then have everybody trying to figure out what it is, what personnel would be best suited to handle that kind of contamination. That is the kind of expertise that I believe we are looking for in ER ONE.

MR. DEATLEY: Yes, ma'am.

DEL. NORTON: One final question: The perhaps most pathetic, most tragic part of Katrina had to do with people who could not take care of themselves, and these were patients -- trauma patients who were in hospitals. I'd like to ask if the Red Cross has any coordinator for persons with disability. I'm not dealing with hospitals -- that, I have to assume the hospitals understood. But the region has very generous programs for dealing with people with disabilities. How would the Red Cross handle large numbers of people with various kinds of disabilities? We have everything from Gallaudet, where people are hard of hearing or cannot hear at all, sometimes cannot speak, to people who are in group homes, to children who go to special schools to get special education. This is a region that has many special facilities for disabled people. How would the Red Cross handle such -- handle an event with so many widely dispersed people with disabilities across the region?

MS. MATHES: Excellent question. Madame Chairwoman, we work closely with partners who specialize in working with people with special needs and disabilities. We engage them in planning efforts and in the execution of them, so we would count on our close working partnerships with our colleagues in the government as well as our nonprofit colleagues who work closely with people with special needs and disabilities.

We work, for example, with the National Organization on Disabilities to anticipate the needs of people with special needs and disabilities on coming into shelters. We've acquired quite a bit of equipment specific to -- specifically to accommodate people with special needs -- also, children -- special equipment for children for sheltering. We've worked with partner organizations to mount preparedness efforts -- preparedness education efforts to assist with what we've talked about earlier today, in terms of helping families prepare -- develop emergency preparedness plans.

DEL. NORTON: Well, staff tells me, Mr. Sarubbi, that after Katrina, headquarters now has a disability coordinator by statute. That's one of the things we learned from Katrina. Is there a disability coordinator in this region and, to your knowledge, in other regions?

MR. SARUBBI: There's a disability coordinator at the national level. Each of the FEMA regions do not have a disability coordinator. But we work closely, similar as to what the Red Cross -- my Red Cross colleague indicated, with our partners in helping to assess the evacuation and sheltering of people with special needs, particularly special medical needs.

For example, we've been working on a project here the last two- and-a-half years called the gap analysis, where we -- the scenario would be a Category 3 hurricane. How would we deal with the evacuation of people with special medical needs? We've been looking at ways of enhancing that capability. We're also working closely with our partners at HHS.

It's not an issue that has been resolved as of yet. There's still much work to be done in that area, but it's certainly one of our focuses, particularly here in Region 3, in the National Capital Region, and as well as for a hurricane scenario in the Hampton Roads area, which is an area that is extremely vulnerable to a direct hit by a hurricane and because of the geography of the area would be particularly difficult in evacuation of citizens, particularly citizens of people with special medical needs.

DEL. NORTON: Thank you, Mr. Sarubbi. May I ask that -- of all of the -- one of the things that we had testimony here today was about the July 4th -- use of July 4th as a real-time exercise. And something we'd like to see in this region is more real-time exercises. But I have to ask you that of all -- you know, for the average person which might be a quick learner, we've seen very good results when people are told what to do who have all their capabilities. Without real-time exercises perhaps they could get through. I would ask in this region that you consider real-time exercises for people with disabilities. They are all over the region. They are often away from their home base. Without real-time exercises I have no confidence that a disabled person of whatever disability would necessarily be prepared as any able-bodied person might to simply do what the person is instructed to do -- where sign language may be necessary, where the person could be handicapped in other ways. So I would ask FEMA, through your disability coordinator established by statute after Hurricane Katrina, to consider real-time exercises throughout the United States, of course, but particularly in this region where we are more vulnerable than most other regions.

MR. SARUBBI: I will certainly do that, Madame Chairman. And as I indicated earlier, continuing -- that's an area of emphasis for us to continue to work with people with special medical needs. And certainly having real-time exercises I think is an important step in that direction. Thank you.

DEL. NORTON: I know that all of you have waited a very long time, first to testify and then to undergo my cross-examination, as it were. (Laughs.) But all I'm trying to do is to get on the record what we need to know in order to respond to your needs. I have found the testimony of each and every one of you invaluable. And may I thank you first of all for your great patience in waiting so long, but most of all for your very valuable testimony.

Thank you very much, and this hearing is finally at an end. (Laughs.)

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