MSNBC "The Ed Show" - Transcript

Interview

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MR. SCHULTZ: Joining me now is independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, who obviously caucuses with the Democrats.

How big a political opening is this, Senator? Thanks for joining us tonight. How big a political opening is this for the Democrats and to really get something done?

SEN. SANDERS: Well, Ed, it really depends upon whether or not we can put together a strong grassroots movement that tells the White House, that tells Congress, that we are, as you just said, sick and tired of private health insurance that's wasting over $300 billion every single year on administrative efforts.

They have all kinds of bureaucracies. They deny people claims that they are entitled to. Clearly the United States needs to join the rest of the industrialized world with a real national health care program that guarantees comprehensive health care to every man, woman and child. And we save money as we do that.

MR. SCHULTZ: Well, I just got word now that Kathleen Sebelius has been confirmed as the secretary of Health and Human Services. How big a deal is this? I mean, it looks like the Republicans might be getting a message here.

SEN. SANDERS: Well, she is a moderate Democrat. She is certainly not a supporter of single payer. And let's not have any illusions that we're close to a single payer. There's a lot of support in the House; less support in the Senate.

But what we have behind us, as you indicate, are the people. We've got 15,000 physicians who believe in single payer. We have all of the evidence that we need not spend a nickel more on health care. We can guarantee every man, woman and child health care with a single- payer system. The problem --

MR. SCHULTZ: Senator --

SEN. SANDERS: Yeah.

MR. SCHULTZ: -- that is what just boggles my mind. We have right now a political moment in this country. The president has high approval ratings. You have the people out there. Town hall after town hall I hear it. They want single payer. You're close to the super-majority, depending on how, you know, some of the independent --

SEN. SANDERS: But Ed, what are you forgetting in that equation?

MR. SCHULTZ: Well, I'm forgetting the filibuster, I guess.

SEN. SANDERS: And you're forgetting the power of the insurance companies --

MR. SCHULTZ: Yeah, that's right.

SEN. SANDERS: -- the huge amounts of money they spend, the power of the drug companies. And if you think that every member of the Democratic caucus is prepared to stand up to those guys, you're mistaken. That's the sad reality.

MR. SCHULTZ: Well, then you know what? Then they shouldn't be voted in. I'll tell you that right now. The Democrats should not be in there, because you've got to eventually listen to the people of this country.

SEN. SANDERS: You do.

MR. SCHULTZ: And they're sick and tired of being ripped off by health insurance companies.

SEN. SANDERS: You're damn right they are. And if we could pass a strong single-payer system, you know what? The Democrats will be in power for the next 20 years, because every American would know that comprehensive quality health care that's affordable to their families will be there.

MR. SCHULTZ: Okay. What kind of Democrat is Arlen Specter going to be on health care? Now, I mentioned that he signed on to the Wyden bill, which, in my opinion, doesn't go far enough. But what kind of Democrat do you think he's going to be?

SEN. SANDERS: Well, I think he'll be a moderate to conservative Democrat. He has indicated, as I understand it, today that he will oppose the Employee Free Choice Act. I expect he keeps his politics, but on procedural issues his vote will be important to give us 60 to end filibuster.

MR. SCHULTZ: Now, how do you think President Obama views this move today by Specter? Does this just give the Democrats more momentum?

SEN. SANDERS: I think it does. I think what it does is it tells -- further indicates to the American people, as Specter indicated, that the Republican Party is an extreme right-wing party, way out of touch with the needs of working families, and simply is the party of no. Anything that the American people want, they say no.

MR. SCHULTZ: Do we need more moderate-conservative Democrats to --

SEN. SANDERS: No. No, you don't.

MR. SCHULTZ: I don't think so either.

SEN. SANDERS: Frankly, what you need are progressives who have the guts to stand up to Wall Street.

MR. SCHULTZ: It's about guts.

SEN. SANDERS: That's right.

MR. SCHULTZ: I don't mean to interrupt you, but it is. It truly is about guts. It's about standing up, because if we can get all of these people in this country without health insurance, if we can get them covered, if we could reel in the insurance industry in this country, we've got a chance to save the economy.

SEN. SANDERS: Absolutely.

MR. SCHULTZ: Don't you think it's the economy that's being butchered by --

SEN. SANDERS: When people say we can't deal with health care now because of the economy, Obama is right. You've got to deal with health care because of the economy. Whether it's General Motors or a small business person, people can't afford escalating, outrageously high costs of health care. We've spent twice as much as any other country on health care, yet we've got 46 million people uninsured. And our outcomes, our health outcomes, are not particularly good. We need a revolution in health care. We need to say health care is a right, not a money-making business, which is currently the case.

MR. SCHULTZ: All right, I guess when I see Arlen Specter, I see a number of shifts. First he co-sponsors the Employee Free Choice Act, then he bails out on it. First he says on the campaign trail that he is in favor of solving the health care issue. Then he signs on to the Wyden bill. I don't think we're ever going to get him to universal health care. They've thrown him under the bus as far as torture is concerned.

There are some moderate things there that the Democrats can warm up to. But the question is this: Does this mean that it's an automatic walk-in? Do you think that there could be a Democrat in Pennsylvania like Joe Sestak who could come out there and challenge him, or do you think there was a deal cut that we're going to leave Specter alone and let him walk into the Democratic caucus?

SEN. SANDERS: I'm not knowledgeable about Pennsylvania politics. My understanding is that Obama said that he will be supporting of Specter, which is obviously very significant.

But the bottom line here, Ed, is you're absolutely right. We have a Democratic president, strong majority in the House, 60 votes in the Senate. If we can't deliver on energy, on health care, on workers' rights, then what's the sense of it all?

MR. SCHULTZ: Okay.

SEN. SANDERS: And the answer is people have got to put pressure on Congress to have the guts to stand up to the insurance companies, the drug companies, the banks, the military-industrial complex.

MR. SCHULTZ: Well, who's going to put pressure on them? Who do you think is going to put pressure on them?

SEN. SANDERS: We're going to need a strong grassroots movement to make that happen.

MR. SCHULTZ: Okay, so you think that people can be heard on this.

SEN. SANDERS: Absolutely. Absolutely, they can be.

MR. SCHULTZ: And if they're not heard, the Democrats pay the political price down the road.

SEN. SANDERS: I think that is exactly correct.

MR. SCHULTZ: Well, I'll tell you what, I'm with you, Senator. I don't know why the Democrats aren't going full speed ahead on this. And there are some Democrats that are just in the pockets of some insurance companies that I think, you know, what are you going to do? And the point is, there's real change here. There's a real opportunity for change here. We seem to be --

SEN. SANDERS: Ed, you're 100 percent right.

MR. SCHULTZ: I think tomorrow night the president should come out at this press conference and say, "Guess what, folks -- everything is on the table," and find out what the people really want. I mean, this idea that Max Baucus is taking, you know, single payer off the table -- nothing should be off the table.

SEN. SANDERS: Not only that, but some of these Democrats want to make sure that any important vote requires 60 votes --

MR. SCHULTZ: Yeah.

SEN. SANDERS: -- which means that it becomes a more conservative proposition.

MR. SCHULTZ: All right.

SEN. SANDERS: You keep up the good work, Ed.

MR. SCHULTZ: Well, now, I just want to know, are you the first socialist that I've ever had on this show? I mean, they made this list out there. Are you a socialist? Are you proud of --

SEN. SANDERS: I'm -- (inaudible) -- self-identified, anyhow.

MR. SCHULTZ: (Laughs.) Senator Sanders, good to have you with us tonight.

SEN. SANDERS: Good to be with you, Ed.

MR. SCHULTZ: Thanks so much.

SEN. SANDERS: Thank you.

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