MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript
Interview
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MS. MADDOW: Joining us now is Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon, member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
Senator Wyden, thank you so much for coming on the show.
SEN. WYDEN: Thank you, Rachel.
MS. MADDOW: As far along as we are in this debate, it seems surprising to me that the Republicans don't seem to have a story to tell, an explanation about whether or not waterboarding is torture and how we should proceed as a country on dealing with the fact that we did it.
Do you think that there is a Republican party line on this subject right now?
SEN. WYDEN: Rachel, I almost needed a scorecard to follow the players. First of all, it is very clear that waterboarding is torture. We prosecuted after World War II the Japanese for doing it to our folks. I'm also very struck by the vice president's comments, the former vice president's comments. He said that we ought to make these documents public.
Well, the fact is there are thousands and thousands of documents involved here. I am sure there are one or two pieces of paper out there that may support the vice president's position. But I do believe, consistent with national security, this ought to get out to the public.
MS. MADDOW: It is to me, as I said, surprising, and I think interesting, that there are so many different and seemingly internally contradicting Republican positions on this issue. But in terms of the political math in Washington right now, it doesn't necessarily really matter what the Republicans want to do, because Democrats have such large majorities in both houses of Congress and because, of course, they control the White House.
Do you think that there is a singular Democratic Party position on how to deal with the fact that we have tortured and how to move forward?
SEN. WYDEN: I think the president has laid out a plan for moving forward. First, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, that I serve on, we are out of the gates now. We've got people in place. We're doing the inquiry. And given the fact that many of us protested these interrogation techniques as soon as we found out, we are very motivated to get to the truth. When we get that information, certainly if there are matters that need to be followed up on, such as matters before the Justice Department, we'll get to them.
MS. MADDOW: When the fact-finding inquiry of that Senate Intelligence Committee -- when that inquiry is completed, when you say things may need to be followed up in the Justice Department, does that mean that if the inquiry warrants, you would support potentially referring things for prosecution?
SEN. WYDEN: Absolutely. The Justice Department is an independent agency. It's our job to find the facts. At this point right now, what's needed is an infusion of good information. The American people want to know who ordered this, what exactly was done under what legal authorities, and it's time to get to the bottom of it.
As soon as I found out what happened, I wrote to the Central Intelligence Agency. I began making speeches. I fought John Rizzo, for example, who was going to be named general counsel of the agency, because I thought he condoned some of the most offensive memos. We ought to make sure that the American people get the facts now.
MS. MADDOW: Are you disturbed by the fact that John Rizzo is still acting general counsel at the CIA right now? Of course, he is due to be replaced, but today he still stands as the highest authority at the CIA as to what is and isn't legal in the agency's actions.
SEN. WYDEN: Rachel, this is bizarre even by the standards of Washington, D.C. His nomination was withdrawn. I led the effort in the Intelligence Committee to have it withdrawn. Had it gone to a vote, I think it would have been overwhelmingly disapproved on a bipartisan basis. But he's still there.
I do think that the president's intelligence team should take steps to get somebody in there who will make judgments in line with the law.
MS. MADDOW: Beyond John Rizzo and his position at the CIA, there appears to be one person whose name we know and whose actions we understand from throughout the torture program, and that is Judge Jay Bybee, who is still a person who's holding public office. There's been discussions about the prospect of Judge Bybee facing an impeachment inquiry because of what we now know about his actions in the torture program that we didn't know when he was confirmed by the Senate. Do you think such an inquiry is warranted?
SEN. WYDEN: I was one of 19 senators who opposed Judge Bybee at the time. I was particularly troubled by his approach to the Geneva Convention, matters that he had written on.
With respect to the issue of impeachment, that's before the House of Representatives. If it comes to the United States Senate, I would sit as a juror, and at that point I'd be making judgment.
MS. MADDOW: Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, thank you so much for joining us tonight, sir.
SEN. WYDEN: Thank you, Rachel.
MS. MADDOW: Thank you.
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