MSNBC "Countdwon with Keither Olbermann" Interview - Transcript

Interview

MR. SHUSTER: At least one top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee has dismissed President Obama's defense of CIA officials who tortured detainees just because they were under orders to do so. Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky told the Huffington Post, quote, "This notion that 'I was just obeying orders' -- I don't want to compare this to Nazi Germany, but we've come to almost ridicule the notion that when horrific acts have been committed, that people can use the excuse that 'Well, I was just following orders.'"

Congresswoman Schakowsky is chairwoman of the Intelligence Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, and she joins us now. And thank you for your time tonight, Congresswoman.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Thank you. I'm glad to be on the show.

MR. SHUSTER: In addition to the "Just following orders" defense, the Obama White House has also emphasized that it wants to be looking forward instead of back. Does that argument defy logic as well?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, let me say about the people in the field who were conducting this, there were people who were actually doing the torture who actually called back to headquarters, particularly with Abu Zubaydah, who was also subjected to waterboarding and smashing against a wall and all kinds of -- putting insects in a box by the people for the Bush administration who ordered it -- they called back to headquarters and said, "Look, we think he does not have any more information. We'd like to stop it." And headquarters said no.

So I don't think that we ought to focus primarily on the actual grunts in the field, the CIA people who are doing their job, when we have architects of this program, people who even today from the Bush administration are going out and not only defending the policy, but suggesting that abandoning it, like Barack Obama has done -- we don't do that anymore -- saying that that policy makes us less safe. I think it's really frightening that they would justify and say that we should continue to torture people. They're still at it.

MR. SHUSTER: Rahm Emanuel -- but let's talk, then, about the architects. Rahm Emanuel and Robert Gibbs said those architects in the administration who either ordered the CIA to do this or wrote the memos justifying it, Gibbs and Emanuel said that they will not be held accountable either.

Is that even worse than the decision not to hold accountable the people who actually -- who may have just claimed, "Oh, we were just carrying out orders"?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Well, here's my concern. I think impunity is a problem, that the fact that this policy maybe 20, 50 years from now can be looked back at and said, "Well, you know, during the Bush administration, they did authorize torture of individuals. This is a critical situation and we ought to do it."

So I do think that the Congress has a duty, then, to look into these situations, to investigate it, and let the investigations lead us where it may go. I think we do need to have more information. I think the release of the tapes is very important. And the very idea that nobody would have known unless the tapes were released is so ridiculous. Everybody knew already. And yet you've got former CIA Director Hayden saying that it's a danger that these tapes were released. You know, the dirty secret was out.

MR. SHUSTER: What's the political calculation that you think President Obama is making here?

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: You know, I actually understand that we have so many issues to face with the economy, trying to get health care and energy passed and all the things that we want to do, looking forward and moving forward. And this is, you know, not -- this is a somewhat divisive issue.

So I get the politics, but I am concerned that we allow this kind of hideous behavior to stand to some degree, even though I'm very grateful to the president that we're not going to do it anymore, thank goodness, and that it's going to make our country safer not to do it, and that, in fact, the torture was a great recruiting tool for al Qaeda and made it more dangerous.

But I still think that even if we don't -- that the administration doesn't want to focus on that, that the Congress needs to take another look.

MR. SHUSTER: Representative Jan Schakowsky of Illinois, and we thank you for your time this evening, Congresswoman.

REP. SCHAKOWSKY: Thank you.

MR. SHUSTER: You're welcome.

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