MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript
Interview
MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show" - Transcript
MSNBC "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" INTERVIEW WITH SENATOR CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY) INTERVIEWER: RACHEL MADDOW
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MS. MADDOW: Joining us now is Senator Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York. He sits on the Judiciary, Finance and Banking Committees and chairs the Senate Rules Committee.
Senator Schumer, thank you so much for coming in. It's nice to see you.
SEN. SCHUMER: Good evening. Great to be here.
MS. MADDOW: Thanks.
On the issue of nominees --
SEN. SCHUMER: Yes.
MS. MADDOW: -- should Republicans be paying a bigger political and public relations price for holding up these nominees, or is this sort of business as usual?
SEN. SCHUMER: No, it's really not business as usual. I mean, there's always been this filibuster rule, but they have just used it for everything. They began last year, when we only had 51 votes. Of course, it was much harder. They even blocked something called the highway technical corrections bill, you know, with the highway number. It was supposed to be 684 and it said 685. They blocked that.
And I think the answer -- the reason is simple. They have nothing positive to say. The world has changed. The old Reagan philosophy which, you know, served them well politically from 1980 to about 2004, 2006, is over. But the hard right, which still believes, when the federal government moves, chop off its hand, still believes, you know, the traditional values kind of arguments and strong foreign policy, all that's over. So they have nothing other than to say no.
And the good news for us -- let me make two points here. The good news for us is the polls show that the Republican Party in the House and Senate is at the lowest ratings they've had in a long time, while Democrats are pretty high. So their "no" strategy clearly isn't working with the public.
And I think President Obama has a pretty smart strategy. He's going to talk bipartisanship to the American people, but realizes that until the Republican grassroots pushes their people over, if that ever happens, we're not going to get change in the House and the Senate. So the answer is 60 votes.
MS. MADDOW: Well, I look at that, though. I look at the number of cloture votes that they've forced, this assumption that 60 votes is normal now. And I worry that that's not what I learned on "Schoolhouse Rock." That's not the way that I think this is supposed to work.
SEN. SCHUMER: No.
MS. MADDOW: I mean, you are the chair of the Senate Rules Committee.
SEN. SCHUMER: I am.
MS. MADDOW: I don't know if that's the right place where this should go, but is there some sort of anti-filibuster abuse rule that could be pushed?
SEN. SCHUMER: Well, here's the problem, and this is sort of a Catch-22 that dates from the days of the old southern Democratic barons. You need two-thirds of the Senate to change any Senate rule. That's 67. That's even worse than 60. And so that was -- that makes it almost impossible to change the rules except if public opinion forces them to change.
Now, you know, there are three, probably, Republican moderates in the Senate -- moderate -- Specter and Collins and Snowe from Maine. There are about 30 hard-right guys. They just believe in that hard- right philosophy; they're not changing. But there are 10 or 12 what you'd call mainstream conservatives, people like Dick Lugar, who supports Chris Hill, for instance; people like Lamar Alexander or George Voinovich.
And the question is, are they going to continue to march totally in line with the hard right even though I think, in their hearts, a lot of them know it's wrong, or are they going to break on occasional issues? The president is going to keep talking bipartisanship to the American people in hopes that it moves some of them.
MS. MADDOW: Why not use the budget reconciliation rules for more legislation, even though that's not precedent, because the Republicans have broken the precedent by invoking filibuster so often?
SEN. SCHUMER: I think that's the direction we're going to move in, and I would support that. I don't think -- I know that we're certainly going to give Senator Baucus, Senator Conrad a chance to pass health care legislation with 60 votes. But it would be my view that if they can't do that by a certain time, August or so, we then move to reconciliation, where we need 51. And it's going to be hard enough to pass national health care with 51 votes.
MS. MADDOW: Sure. In the contested Minnesota Senate race -- thinking about the size of the majority --
SEN. SCHUMER: Yes.
MS. MADDOW: -- you called today for Norm Coleman to concede. When do you think this ends?
SEN. SCHUMER: Well, we -- you know, here's what Norm Coleman does. He keeps contesting different parts of the election and keeps losing votes. The count today -- Al Franken gained, I believe it was -- well, he's up to 315 votes. He was at 225 and then 250. So Coleman ought to realize that he is not going to win this election.
Here's the key. He does have a right, Coleman does, to go to the Minnesota Supreme Court. My view -- the Minnesota Supreme Court has rejected his arguments four times already. This will be the last time. And then is the key issue. The law requires both the governor and secretary of state to sign the certification that Al Franken is senator. The secretary of state has said he would. Governor Pawlenty says he would follow the law, but he hasn't said explicitly he should.
The people of Minnesota certainly want him to sign and get a senator already. And poor Al Franken; he's been through -- they've read and reread and challenged and rechallenged vote after vote after vote. But Pawlenty, who has national aspirations, may be under pressure from the national Republican Party to just hold it up and not sign. I hope that doesn't happen, because the law is very, very clear.
MS. MADDOW: Well, you know what defeats pressure -- pressure.
SEN. SCHUMER: You bet.
MS. MADDOW: One last question --
SEN. SCHUMER: I'm a believer in that.
MS. MADDOW: Mark Danner was just joining us here. He's the man who has published the CIA report on torture in CIA prisons. You're a member of the Judiciary Committee. Would you support a movement toward a Judiciary Committee-led investigation?
SEN. SCHUMER: Well, I think the first place -- look, I have some faith in Eric Holder and the Obama administration on this issue. The first day they said, "Okay, waterboarding is torture. We're not going to torture." And the most important thing they did is they extended the Army manual, which isn't bad on these issues, to the CIA.
So the first and logical place to do investigations -- and, look, if there are egregious violations of law, they should be prosecuted. I mean, President Obama has said --
MS. MADDOW: There are.
SEN. SCHUMER: I know.
MS. MADDOW: We've got pretty great evidence at this point.
SEN. SCHUMER: Innocent before proven guilty, but President Obama has said he doesn't want to spend all his time looking back; fair enough. But he has also said egregious violations of law should be prosecuted. The most logical, best place to start is the Justice Department itself. They haven't said whether they're going to do it or not. In fairness to them, they're just beginning to get staffed up because of all these hold-backs. If they won't do it, someone else is going to have to do it. But they should be given the first crack.
MS. MADDOW: Senator Schumer, it's a real pleasure to have you on the show.
SEN. SCHUMER: Likewise.
MS. MADDOW: I can't believe we haven't had you here before, but I'm really happy to have you here tonight. Thank you.
SEN. SCHUMER: Well, thanks. Good to be here. Thanks.
END.
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